Cha based rogue

[Snoweel]

I like to make variants to the standard character classes.

That said, suppose I have a rogue who relies on Cha-based skills over Dex-based.

And the character concept makes Sneak Attack and Evasion (is that it? Uncanny Dodge? The ability gained at 2nd level) inappropriate. I've already ruled that the character has Will as the stronger save instead of Reflex.

But I'm wondering about replacements for Sneak Attack and Evasion - is a single feat for each balanced, or does the class need something more? Magical abilities are out of the question.

Thanks.

P.S. Does this belong in House Rules?

 

[Ravellion]

I like to make variants to the standard character classes.

P.S. Does this belong in House Rules?

Probably, yes.

Anyway, I think basically you take a Bard, get rid of the spellcasting and the perform stuff, and give him 8 skill points per level. Then you give a +1 bonus on charisma based chaecks at 5, 10, 15 and 20th level.

Weak? Depends on the game.

Rav

 

[Crothian]

House Rules, Shouse Rules, it is where it is. While it would be better there, hopefully someone will move it.

I think the some of the abilities from the Noble (either the Mongoose Power Class version, or the Star Wars Rvided version) would be appropriate. I'd stay away from just offering feats and try to come up with something a little bit more class situated.

 

[Tuerny]

Courtier!

What you need is the Courtier from the Rokugan d20 book.
It will fufill all your social class needs.

Jesse Dean

 

[EricNoah]

It would be neat if you could come up with alternative abilities that are still in the style/theme of what you're replacing.

Sneak attack grows more powerful every few levels. I'm having trouble coming up with a cool CHA-related alternative here. Maybe some sort of ability like a non-magical version of the command spell -- maybe you could add a word to the command every few levels (a 1-word command at 1st, a 2-word command at 3rd, etc.). Something that allows you to (briefly) dominate weaker wills. Not sure how many times per day would be appropriate here or what the DCs would be. (Edit -- perhaps the DC would be set by your Intimidate, Bluff or Diplomacy skill check, as appropriate?)

Evasion allows you to avoid certain kinds of damage. Maybe you need some sort of "mental evasion" -- something that improves the ability to avoid being charmed, affected by fear, etc. Maybe if you fail your first save, you get another save a minute later? It's not quite as good as the "slippery mind" ability a rogue can choose at 10th level, but it's up there...

Another possiblity could revolve around the CHA skills. Normally the conditions have to be right to even have a chance of using them, but perhaps this "charming rogue" could get away with Bluffing with a completely unbelievable lie, or Intimidating while bound and weaponless. Maybe something like allowing the rogue to take 20 on these kinds of skills a certain number of times per day?

 

[Snoweel]

Rav - I don't like the idea of starting with the bard - too many swap-outs. The character is a rogue variant, but thanks anyway.

Crothian - I'm actually trying to blur the line between classes so I'm happy to do away with class abilities. This particular character is a member of my campaign's Samurai social class (though it's not really so Japanese in flavour). He already has Samurai weapon- and armour-proficiencies, so maybe I should just do away with sneak attack and evasion in favour of bigger HD (d8) and a good Fortitude save to go with his Will save.

Tuerny - Dude, I LOVE Rokugan and OA. I considered the courtier, but this character was ostensibly trained by his family to be a samurai (though, as stated, I don't use Japanese terms or window-dressing IMC). However, he's more of a rogue owing to his "mixing with the sons of merchants, bureaucrats and criminals" during his upbringing in teh Big City. And I want to avoid multiclassing.

Eric - I've always had trouble coming up with balanced alternatives, so I try not to. Ideally, I'd use something from the PHB. I considered something like a non-magical command or charm but I have no idea how to work the mechanics for it. I loathe non-magical abilities with limited per-day usage (which is why I don't like the Barbarian class). What do you think of my ideas above - swapping Sneak Attack and Evasion for improved HD and Fort save? Considering he has much better proficiencies than a standard rogue.

 

[EricNoah]

What do you think of my ideas above - swapping Sneak Attack and Evasion for improved HD and Fort save? Considering he has much better proficiencies than a standard rogue.

From a player's point of view, the trade-off with losing sneak attack is "removing something fun that I get to actively choose to do in exchange for better defense." Balance-wise, I think you're probably fine. But it would be fun to find something active that could be done by the character.

I see what you mean about per-day limits on non-magical abilities. Maybe instead of it being x times per day, it just gets harder to do as the day goes on (represented by an ever-increasing penalty)? Dunno...

 

[Tuerny]

Tuerny - Dude, I LOVE Rokugan and OA. I considered the courtier, but this character was ostensibly trained by his family to be a samurai (though, as stated, I don't use Japanese terms or window-dressing IMC). However, he's more of a rogue owing to his "mixing with the sons of merchants, bureaucrats and criminals" during his upbringing in teh Big City. And I want to avoid multiclassing.
than a standard rogue.

See, I don't see it as being that limited. I think it has much potential being something that adventuring charisma-based merchants could take as diplomats, nobles, and kings.

Its basically the other half of the PC version of the expert and artistocrat along with the rogue.

All it takes is altering the skill list slightly. (Appraise is the important one methinks)

 

[Snoweel]

From a player's point of view, the trade-off with losing sneak attack is "removing something fun that I get to actively choose to do in exchange for better defense." Balance-wise, I think you're probably fine. But it would be fun to find something active that could be done by the character.

Good point. I didn't even consider this.

I see what you mean about per-day limits on non-magical abilities. Maybe instead of it being x times per day, it just gets harder to do as the day goes on (represented by an ever-increasing penalty)? Dunno...

I tried to do something like this for Rage-type abilities (from the Barbarian class as well as the odd PrC).

I gave up when it got mired in too many numbers.

So now Rage is just screaming while swinging one's axe.

Edit: Tuerny - I guess the Courtier is just too weak combat-wise for this character. He is something of a bad-ass, even though he's not in the same league a Fighter.

I don't have Rokugan here, but the Courtier's like, Wizard BAB and d4 HD, isn't it? I think Rogue's a far better base.

 

[Tuerny]

Bad-ass a courtier is definitely not.
He doesn't have d4 hit dice (he has d6) but he definitely has a wizards bab