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Message: <blockquote data-quote="grufflehead" data-source="post: 5376085" data-attributes="member: 35977">Apologies to Edwin Starr for the thread title. So, charisma - is it more trouble than it is worth? Many game systems don't have a CHA stat and handle how the PCs interact socially with the world in other ways, often more abstract. Others have no stat, but still have skills or abilities which handle specific types of interaction e.g. Persuasion, Fast Talking etc.On one of my periodic forays onto the parts of the Paizo boards which don't involve play by post games, I constantly find myself having to get up, walk around and count to 20 when I see the word 'optimise' (the therapy seems to be paying off as the word 'viable' no longer causes me to twitch uncontrollably...). So I decided to actually read a thread or two instead of reaching for something to gouge my eyeballs out. <a href="http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/practicalOptimizationMakeTheNumbersFitYourRoleplaying" target="_blank">This one</a> as it happens.Now the OP (and many of the contributors) make their points intelligently and articulately. They are absolutely correct to state that 'optimised' PCs do not necessarily equal min/maxed PCs, and that optimised PCs can be roleplayed very well. I still take issue at the sentiment that non-optimised PCs are a leech on the others and therefore somehow less worthy of play, but don't let me go off on another tangent.The OP has gone further by asking people for character concepts which s/he will then stat up using Pathfinder point buy. To save you the trouble of reading the thread, see if you can spot the common thread: - 'a dashing handsome sort of hero who can woo the fair maiden, talk his way out of trouble, and tell when someone's pulling his leg?' CHA 7- 'a rather strange lad?' CHA 7- 'educated in history and archeology, and possibly arcana, but found that he enjoyed exploring musty tombs and using his practical skills over poring over dry books at the university' CHA 7- 'terrorizes the land to drive people from sarenrae's worship' CHA 7- 'He's gruff and taciturn for the most part' CHA 7'But how can this be?' I hear you ask. Surely this campaign world is full of wart-ridden, social lepers who drool constantly and are as likely to punch you as say hello? Apparently not. It appears these people only comprise the ones for whom CHA doesn't give a mechanical benefit in their class. And better still, all they need to do to overcome their deeply, deeply unpleasant traits is... put ranks in Diplomacy, because with enough of them, you're just as good as someone with an 18 CHA!Now, to try and be fair, you could just as well say that the guy with DEX 7 can put lots of points into Stealth and be ninja-like, or someone with an INT  7 could be the world expert on botany because of all those ranks in Knowledge (Nature). Problem is, none of these optimisation threads would countenance a DEX 7 because it affects your initiative, and Ref save, and AC etc. So, if it doesn't mechanically affect anything other than CHA based spellcasters ability to cast more complicated spells, unlike all 5 other stats in the game, why is it still there? It's just a dump stat, and so the point buy idea becomes corrupted because it is no longer '15 pts' when anyone but the bard or sorcerer actually gets 19 pts - 15 plus the 4 extra they get for lowering their CHA to 7 - with absolutely no in game consequences. Is there a workable alternative to handle social interaction that would let us finally wave CHA goodbye?</blockquote>

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