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Message: <blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 8613483" data-attributes="member: 92511">If we're going to do six (lots of people seem to missing that part of the challenge/discussion -by both too few and up to "much too" many) then it would behoove us to take some semblance of "balance" into account.The easiest way to do that has, already, been mentioned in the building them up around the six character abilities. Makes sense. Already known/well ingrained in the game and culture. But what if -keeping the abilities in mind, but not the controlling/sole variable- instead, we build them up around their function. Not their (4e styled) "roles," or how they play. You could have multiple types of roles within each class heading. But what type of character they are supposed to portray.  What does the magical world of fantasy need for adventurers? You get six options. Everything else you might want has to (and can) fit into one of those six "classes" as a subclass option or choices of feats or backgrounds or add-on "prestige class" levels at various points of play. But the bulk of what we think of as "classes" (and the most popular subclasses) will be...How about we call them, "self-contained subclass" options of the base class.You have six. For that semblance of balance I mentioned earlier, to make things fair, you need those without magic and those with. A three/three split seems pretty obvious.SO you need the three non-magic dependent types (which does not preclude some minor magic use or supernatural powers/effects, but the core/root of the type is not dependent on magic use): 1. those that are all about combat. They fight up close. They fight from afar. They fight with or without weapons, with or without armor, with or without special training, but they fight. That's what their purpose in this game of adventure, primarily, is.2. those that are all about skills/experts of a non-combat nature. They know information or tricks or some otherwise special or secret ways of getting things done without having to fight/use weapons or, necessarily, using magic....seems the obvious third would be those that are a combination of the two. But that doesn't seem accurate or fair...Plenty of warrior archetypes have non-combat skills/specialities. Plenty of skill-monkeys can hold their own in combat..., And the magical types wouldn't be separated that way... so, how about...3. those that are all about combining all skills, fighting ability, and with or without a little magic in whatever combinations to make for a useful adventurer. If they have magic-use, these characters/role is not dependent or defined by it. It is just one more tool in their toolkit.Magic-dependent types are (almost more easily) separated off by their...let's call it "access" or "how they use magic" rather than the simplistic and ill-defined "arcane/divine" split.  So we get:1. those that can USE magic. Whether it's incantations, items, glyphs, words, rites, gestures, the classes abilities to harness and direct magic is -mostly- external forces being shaped and "cast" through some medium.2. those that can MAKE magic. Your magic might be internal connection to a magical force or it might be something to gather and mold the aether through various means, but the product of your efforts is some magic effect that is not a really a "spell" or, necessarily, your power...but it is still magical/supernatural.3. those that ARE magic. Those classes that are innate in their capacity to harness and direct magics and/or those with 'inner" magic that needn't rely on external items or training in special words or weird materials.This gives us...Fighter--Barbarian - the wild/untrained fighter, rage fighter, berserker--Cavalier - the trained/learned fighter, honor-bound fighter, knight--Martial Adept - the unarmed super-disciplined/tough fighter, brawler--Swordmage/Eldritch Knight/something better - the uses arcane magic in their fighting fighterRogue--Acrobat - the maneuverability specialist/expert, mobile combatant, cat burglar, entertainer--Rake/Cad - the interactive specialist/expert, negotiator, courtesan, spy, mastermind--Thief - the stealth & trickery specialist/expert--Trickster - the stealth & trickery with magic specialist/expert, could be a jester, could be a ninja, could be extra-rogue/thiefy bard, minor arcane magic (predominantly illusion and spells for infiltration and deception)Explorer--Bard - the loremaster, chronicler, entertainer, the semi-thief, semi-fighter, semi-spell-user, nature magic (the music of the universe) channeler, support- and inspiration-meister.--Crusader - the holy/religious fighter, minor divine magic, paladin-lite (make Paladin a prestige class)--Ranger - the wilderness specialist/expert, outdoorsman, borderlands warrior, options for adding animal companions, adding nature magic, adding special monster-hunter, etc...--Swashbuckler - the acrobatic/mobility fighter, expert sailor/mariner, interactive charms and combat panache.Wizard (the Int. magic-users)--Druid - nature magic caster--Illusionist - illusion/enchantment magic specialist caster--Invoker/Oracle - divine magic caster--Mage - arcane magic casterChanneler (the Wis. magic-users)--Alchemist - the alchemy magic-maker--Artificer - the item/augmenting magic-maker--Cleric - the divine magic channeler--Warlock - the arcane magic channelerSorcerer (the Cha. magic-users)--Elementalist -wielder of innate element-based magic--Psychic - wielder of innate mental powers--Shadowcaster - wielder of shadow magic--Witch - wielder of innate diverse magic powers</blockquote>

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