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<blockquote data-quote="beej" data-source="post: 8298439" data-attributes="member: 62869">Hey hey U_K!My gut feel is that there are two different lenses to looking at this (numerical and narrative). Like I see how four CR 5 monsters should be CR 16 from a numbers standpoint, but in running 5E I find that four, say, CR 5 trolls would be quite a bit lower than what I would expect from a CR 16 challenge.(That said CR 16 monsters don't feel like CR 16 monsters in the same way that a CR 5 monster feels like a CR 5 monster - at least in the official books - so blah.)So I guess:<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">If I'm looking at it numerically, I'd say monsters as low as CR 13 should already be able to do things that a level 20 character (sans rare to legendary magic items, epic boons, etc) can't, and are therefore &quot;epic.&quot; </li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Narratively, I find that monsters start to truly &quot;feel&quot; epic once they hit the tier 4 threshold, which I think is level 17? eg my 5E narrative sense would accept a &quot;weak&quot; demon lord at CR 17.</li>
</ul>Hope this helps!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="beej, post: 8298439, member: 62869"] Hey hey U_K! My gut feel is that there are two different lenses to looking at this (numerical and narrative). Like I see how four CR 5 monsters should be CR 16 from a numbers standpoint, but in running 5E I find that four, say, CR 5 trolls would be quite a bit lower than what I would expect from a CR 16 challenge. (That said CR 16 monsters don't feel like CR 16 monsters in the same way that a CR 5 monster feels like a CR 5 monster - at least in the official books - so blah.) So I guess: [LIST] [*]If I'm looking at it numerically, I'd say monsters as low as CR 13 should already be able to do things that a level 20 character (sans rare to legendary magic items, epic boons, etc) can't, and are therefore "epic." [*]Narratively, I find that monsters start to truly "feel" epic once they hit the tier 4 threshold, which I think is level 17? eg my 5E narrative sense would accept a "weak" demon lord at CR 17. [/LIST] Hope this helps! [/QUOTE]

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