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Message: <blockquote data-quote="justanobody" data-source="post: 4500163" data-attributes="member: 70778">MrMyth:Probably the default assumption of 4th edition that you don't need to play through a skill challenge, but can just roll the dice through it, and then IF every party member fails you would need to worry with thinking through it.The rules give option, but it is up to player to pick which option to use, and tell me how new younger players will look at it? I have seen a few that just say things like "What skill do I need to roll for" when faced with a skill challenge, before even given any information about it.Why should the DM ever describe a challenge, when all you need is some number to combare a series of die rolls to?How much of 4th now can be done by JUST rolling dice?Nothing that is achieved by rolling dice challenges the players nor the character, it only challenges the player luck.While it may be better to have story related puzzles, there is nothing that says you can't have logic puzzles to challenge the player int he game and have them somehow be something else in the story, or even the exact same logic puzzle in the game.The player thinks for the character, so take the entrance to Moria "Speak friend and enter".Frodo, not Gandalf solved the puzzle. Which would you figure to have greater knowledge based stats about magic doors, dwarves, elves, etc? Gandalf who has been around, or Frodo who has only heard some stories from Gandalf's visits and Bilbo's stories.Maybe Frodo got a lucky roll of the dice, or the player just had an idea that transcends the characters stats.4th edition relies heavily on stat management and dice rolling to make the game easier and more streamlined. It doesn't mean you cannot include the other things, but they are not given to the players as option for those new to the game are they?What are the rules in the PHB for skill challenges? What is in the PHB are the player expectations, and what is in the DMG is where a disconnect can happen if the same type of information is not given to both. The DM could likely forget the PHB doesn't explain as much about the game as the DMG does.One reason I like the Rules Cyclopedia. A single book for all players so everyone knows the same information about the game, and the players just have to hold knowledge they shouldn't use in reserve with the player will power.If I am playing and given a puzzle to solve, and want to actually solve it and another player rolls some dice to get us past it, without letting me enjoy solving the puzzle, I will get up and leave the game not to return. They can do thing they normally couldn't but not at the expense of other players enjoyment of the game.</blockquote>

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