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<blockquote data-quote="joethelawyer" data-source="post: 4501025" data-attributes="member: 55764">thats funny as hell, man. but was true all too back then.&nbsp; player skill was critical.one thing i remember also was the thorough room searching we did.&nbsp; it wasnt just roll a d20 and and your search skill vs. a dc.&nbsp; our dm made us look in every nook and cranny. PC: &quot;i open the door of the chest.&nbsp; i pull out the drawers, all the way.&nbsp; i look behind the drawers. i look to see if there are false floors in the chest. i move the chest to see if there is anything under it. i tear apart the bed and bedding ripping it all to shreds.&quot;DM:&nbsp; in all that time, the bad guys just jumped your greedy asses and got the surprise on you.&nbsp; oh, you didnt heal after that last fight in your haste to loot?&nbsp; hmm.&nbsp; your loss.&nbsp; fireball incoming!!!&nbsp; roll your saving throws losers!&quot;the game was often a battle between the dm and the pc's, the dm trying to kill the group, and the group trying to live to fight another day.i admit i haven't played 4e.&nbsp; i just read the books.&nbsp; to the extent that the skill system is better/different than 3.x, i have no first hand knowledge. to the extent that there is still a detailed skill system taking the place of what we used to do without the use of a skill system, then it goes to my position that 1e is different than later editions for the reasons i stated in the OP.&nbsp; 4e may be better or more realistic than 3e was.&nbsp; i dunno.&nbsp; i just know that they are both different than 1e in that they both have a skill system taking the place of what we used to do without one.&nbsp; in other words, making it a challenge to the character rather than to the player.i do appreciate the various viewpoints and want to thank everyone for not letting this interesting discussion degenerate into a BS editions war thread.the player v. character differences dont just go to the skill systems though.&nbsp; i think there is something to be said for some aspects of the feat system in 3.x and the tactical aspect of some powers in 4e taking the place of what used to be creative moves players just made up on the spot, which the dm would just assign a random dex or str check to roll against to determine success.&nbsp; i feel that the in depth detailing of what spells can and cannot do has the same effect of limiting their creative use.&nbsp; thanks for the discussion guys.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="joethelawyer, post: 4501025, member: 55764"] thats funny as hell, man. but was true all too back then. player skill was critical. one thing i remember also was the thorough room searching we did. it wasnt just roll a d20 and and your search skill vs. a dc. our dm made us look in every nook and cranny. PC: "i open the door of the chest. i pull out the drawers, all the way. i look behind the drawers. i look to see if there are false floors in the chest. i move the chest to see if there is anything under it. i tear apart the bed and bedding ripping it all to shreds." DM: in all that time, the bad guys just jumped your greedy asses and got the surprise on you. oh, you didnt heal after that last fight in your haste to loot? hmm. your loss. fireball incoming!!! roll your saving throws losers!" the game was often a battle between the dm and the pc's, the dm trying to kill the group, and the group trying to live to fight another day. i admit i haven't played 4e. i just read the books. to the extent that the skill system is better/different than 3.x, i have no first hand knowledge. to the extent that there is still a detailed skill system taking the place of what we used to do without the use of a skill system, then it goes to my position that 1e is different than later editions for the reasons i stated in the OP. 4e may be better or more realistic than 3e was. i dunno. i just know that they are both different than 1e in that they both have a skill system taking the place of what we used to do without one. in other words, making it a challenge to the character rather than to the player. i do appreciate the various viewpoints and want to thank everyone for not letting this interesting discussion degenerate into a BS editions war thread. the player v. character differences dont just go to the skill systems though. i think there is something to be said for some aspects of the feat system in 3.x and the tactical aspect of some powers in 4e taking the place of what used to be creative moves players just made up on the spot, which the dm would just assign a random dex or str check to roll against to determine success. i feel that the in depth detailing of what spells can and cannot do has the same effect of limiting their creative use. thanks for the discussion guys. [/QUOTE]

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