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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 4505563" data-attributes="member: 42582">I think we might have different notions of what the &quot;game playing&quot; is in 4e (or other games with &quot;storytelling&quot; aspects).It's not quite true that the only effect the story has on the mechanical aspects of skill challenge resolution is (as you say) the GM changing DCs because of it. The story also opens up the use of skills.But more importantly, the interest to the participants in the game turns on the story which is hung upon the mechanical skeleton of the skill challenge - just as the interest to the participants in the game of a combat encounter turns upon the story which is hung upon the mechanical skeleton of the combat mechanics (what makes combat interesting is not just moving numbers around from column A to column B, but the fact that this is my PC fighting for her life against these evil monstrosities!).If you strip away the story and just roll dice as per the mechanics, I think you'll have a pretty boring experience. But this is not how the game is intended to be played.True.&nbsp; I take back my assertion.&nbsp; It is possible Justanobody is using the Skill Challenge system mistakenly thinking he is still doing combat.&nbsp; Or is using it and is unsatisfied because he does not like any kind of non-combat play.&nbsp; I suspect differently, but you are right here.Maybe. 4e's integration of an abstract, narrativist/story-telling skill challenge mechanic, with a detailed combat system that is in some ways abstract but quite different in the way it plays out, is new. But the idea of a game that combines roleplaying in your sense (which the D&amp;D rulebooks call &quot;exploration&quot;) with mechanically-structured storytelling is not new. Besides other RPGs that have been around for several years (eg HeroWars, The Dying Earth) there is the example of D&amp;D itself, which has combined roleplaying with mechanically-structured storytelling in combat (at least since 3E, but to a significant extent in AD&amp;D and classic DE&amp;D as well).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 4505563, member: 42582"] I think we might have different notions of what the "game playing" is in 4e (or other games with "storytelling" aspects). It's not quite true that the only effect the story has on the mechanical aspects of skill challenge resolution is (as you say) the GM changing DCs because of it. The story also opens up the use of skills. But more importantly, the interest to the participants in the game turns on the story which is hung upon the mechanical skeleton of the skill challenge - just as the interest to the participants in the game of a combat encounter turns upon the story which is hung upon the mechanical skeleton of the combat mechanics (what makes combat interesting is not just moving numbers around from column A to column B, but the fact that this is my PC fighting for her life against these evil monstrosities!). If you strip away the story and just roll dice as per the mechanics, I think you'll have a pretty boring experience. But this is not how the game is intended to be played. True. I take back my assertion. It is possible Justanobody is using the Skill Challenge system mistakenly thinking he is still doing combat. Or is using it and is unsatisfied because he does not like [I]any kind[/I] of non-combat play. I suspect differently, but you are right here. Maybe. 4e's integration of an abstract, narrativist/story-telling skill challenge mechanic, with a detailed combat system that is in some ways abstract but quite different in the way it plays out, is new. But the idea of a game that combines roleplaying in your sense (which the D&D rulebooks call "exploration") with mechanically-structured storytelling is not new. Besides other RPGs that have been around for several years (eg HeroWars, The Dying Earth) there is the example of D&D itself, which has combined roleplaying with mechanically-structured storytelling in combat (at least since 3E, but to a significant extent in AD&D and classic DE&D as well). [/QUOTE]

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