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<blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 4505601" data-attributes="member: 3192">My posts are getting eaten, but here's a quick repeat of my response:It is true a DM could include a new skill, based upon a player's story of it, into the pre-designed Skill Challenge. I think your making an error on what &quot;story&quot; is and missing at least one playstyle preference.&nbsp; First, you're continually making the error of calling all imagined items as &quot;story&quot;.&nbsp; This is a confusion you can easily resolve by checking the definitional difference between the two.&nbsp; To put it simply, not every idea == story.&nbsp; Secondly, take a non-hobby rpg like the Model U.N. game for an example.&nbsp; Players can enjoy the debate portion of the game without caring that they are playing as U.N. Representatives or not.&nbsp; It's the same as someone who is equally pleased with playing D&amp;D combat as he is with playing DDM.&nbsp; He's there for the combat system, not the fact his figure might mean anything more than that.&nbsp; The rest is just unimportant.&nbsp; And that's okay.As above, it's still a legitimate way to play the game.&nbsp; And again, it isn't story that they are interacting with just because the object interacted with is held as an idea vs. an idea represented on a game board.&nbsp; Story comes about with the retelling of those actions, not the taking of them themselves.&nbsp; That's the error of confusing all existence with telling a story.&nbsp; No one talks that way and there are defined modes of discourse explaining why not.Two things: 1. Could you please point me to where the 4E books list role-playing as &quot;exploration&quot;?&nbsp; I imagine it's just another Ron Edwards, Indie community-based confusion on their parts.&nbsp; I don't think anyone should blame them for that.2. You make assertions that 3E and pre-d20 D&amp;D both have storytelling instead of role-playing in portions of their combat systems.&nbsp; Could you provide details?&nbsp; I'm not recalling any off hand.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="howandwhy99, post: 4505601, member: 3192"] My posts are getting eaten, but here's a quick repeat of my response:It is true a DM could include a new skill, based upon a player's story of it, into the pre-designed Skill Challenge. I think your making an error on what "story" is and missing at least one playstyle preference. First, you're continually making the error of calling all imagined items as "story". This is a confusion you can easily resolve by checking the definitional difference between the two. To put it simply, not every idea == story. Secondly, take a non-hobby rpg like the Model U.N. game for an example. Players can enjoy the debate portion of the game without caring that they are playing as U.N. Representatives or not. It's the same as someone who is equally pleased with playing D&D combat as he is with playing DDM. He's there for the combat system, not the fact his figure might mean anything more than that. The rest is just unimportant. And that's okay. As above, it's still a legitimate way to play the game. And again, it isn't story that they are interacting with just because the object interacted with is held as an idea vs. an idea represented on a game board. Story comes about with the retelling of those actions, not the taking of them themselves. That's the error of confusing all existence with telling a story. No one talks that way and there are defined modes of discourse explaining why not. Two things: 1. Could you please point me to where the 4E books list role-playing as "exploration"? I imagine it's just another Ron Edwards, Indie community-based confusion on their parts. I don't think anyone should blame them for that. 2. You make assertions that 3E and pre-d20 D&D both have storytelling instead of role-playing in portions of their combat systems. Could you provide details? I'm not recalling any off hand. [/QUOTE]

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