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<blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 4510043" data-attributes="member: 3192">Why is a physical simulation so determinedly different than a mental one?&nbsp; I understand that physical props are useful for immediate representation like pictures instead of words, but why couldn't the professor have used a map, drawn or mental?If skill challenges are simulations, how can they be shared narrations, while combat simulations are not?&nbsp; The very definitions of the words Simulation or Model include &quot;incomplete representation of&quot;.&nbsp; That doesn't change these into &quot;shared narrational authority resolution&quot; systems.&nbsp; A Player wandering the desert in the Outdoor Survival system (our OD&amp;D system) could not say, &quot;there is a ruined tower here my PC scrambles up.&quot;&nbsp; Nor is the determination of reality a &quot;Stake&quot; where the dice are used to adjudicate who gets to be &quot;King of Determining the World&quot;.&nbsp; The DM isn't allowed to do this, why would someone playing a PC in that world be able to?&nbsp; The DM has to base the existence of said tower or chandelier on his knowledge of what the world may hold or use whatever system is in place to determine such.&nbsp; If you want to include said determination into a Skill Challenge dice roll, you've changed role-players into role-players plus world creators.&nbsp; This doesn't work for most folks as the challenge stops being &quot;beating your opponents as your character&quot; into &quot;beating your opponents by halfway wishing the world into existence to win.&quot;&nbsp; I'm not de-legitimizing this for those who want it.&nbsp; But it is absolutely a different thing than role-playing.&nbsp; At best, it's a hybrid of playing the PC and God.&nbsp; Nor could you play both at the same time.&nbsp; Either you are playing a role or you are telling a story.&nbsp; The only exception In character is telling the story of your PCs personality by Imrov Acting.&nbsp; This is the difference between people jumping up from the table shouting, &quot;WE KICKED YOUR BUTT!!&quot; to &quot;That was a good story we made.&quot;It is my assertion success is as important to role-players as it is to wargamers and cardsharks.&nbsp; I think most every RPG company gets this when they strive for balance in their rulesets.&nbsp; It's not about appeasing complaining players who can't stand having a PC with less influence in any given situation)&nbsp; It's because they intuitively know that power to win is important in &quot;games&quot;.&nbsp; IMO, it is as true for DDM as it is for simulations with scopes broad enough to be called RPGs/D&amp;D.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="howandwhy99, post: 4510043, member: 3192"] Why is a physical simulation so determinedly different than a mental one? I understand that physical props are useful for immediate representation like pictures instead of words, but why couldn't the professor have used a map, drawn or mental? If skill challenges are simulations, how can they be shared narrations, while combat simulations are not? The very definitions of the words Simulation or Model include "incomplete representation of". That doesn't change these into "shared narrational authority resolution" systems. A Player wandering the desert in the Outdoor Survival system (our OD&D system) could not say, "there is a ruined tower here my PC scrambles up." Nor is the determination of reality a "Stake" where the dice are used to adjudicate who gets to be "King of Determining the World". The DM isn't allowed to do this, why would someone playing a PC in that world be able to? The DM has to base the existence of said tower or chandelier on his knowledge of what the world may hold or use whatever system is in place to determine such. If you want to include said determination into a Skill Challenge dice roll, you've changed role-players into role-players plus world creators. This doesn't work for most folks as the challenge stops being "beating your opponents as your character" into "beating your opponents by halfway wishing the world into existence to win." I'm not de-legitimizing this for those who want it. But it is absolutely a different thing than role-playing. At best, it's a hybrid of playing the PC and God. Nor could you play both at the same time. Either you are playing a role or you are telling a story. The only exception In character is telling the story of your PCs personality by Imrov Acting. This is the difference between people jumping up from the table shouting, "WE KICKED YOUR BUTT!!" to "That was a good story we made." It is my assertion success is as important to role-players as it is to wargamers and cardsharks. I think most every RPG company gets this when they strive for balance in their rulesets. It's not about appeasing complaining players who can't stand having a PC with less influence in any given situation) It's because they intuitively know that power to win is important in "games". IMO, it is as true for DDM as it is for simulations with scopes broad enough to be called RPGs/D&D. [/QUOTE]

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