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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kerrick" data-source="post: 3919717" data-attributes="member: 4722">Agreed. I'm not sure where you're getting this CR = 2/3 ECL thing either.Again, I agree. You're adding too many variable into the equation, and that's what's clouding things. If you have a PC with add-ons (templates, racial abilities, or whatever), that's an LA. Class level + LA = ECL. ECL = CR. Creatures are not PCs - their abilities are already factored into their CRs, and therefore they don't get an ECL. Now, if you have a monster with class levels, THAT would require an LA, since you're combining racial abilites and class levels. But your random beastie? No. Dude, they're OGC: <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm" target="_blank">http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm</a>Okay, here are my thoughts on the issue... (And I know you already know a good bit of this, but bear with me - I'm going through the process I'd use. I've found that going over the whole process from step 1 has a greater chance to reveal errors in logic.)First off: Establish a baseline of power. We're assuming that 1 character level =  1 CR. I'd figure out the average power of a character at a given level (much like you did, by assigning values to class abilities) and use that as CR 1. WotC used the typical 4-person party, but I think you should use 1. 4 PCs represents 4 times as many combinations of power and levels as a single PC. If you use 1, with an averageUse 1 generic PC, with the average power level (including wealth) of a PC of level x (as determined by averaging the power levels of all the base classes). Incidentally, I think the official wealth charts are way off - I've already gone on about this at great length, but I think using a balanced (and uniformly increasing) wealth progression would do a lot to curb PC power progression.Why 1 PC, you ask? Simple: Once you know how strong ONE PC is, you can add more and determine how that affects the power level. For example (and I'm pulling this out of thin air), a second PC of equal level could increase the PAL by *1.3. This is how they're doing it in 4E, incidentally - they're balancing 1 PC against 1 monster, so that they can throw larger numbers of monsters against the party, making encounters more fun and giving everyone something to do.Second: Compare the power level of the PC against monsters of various (projected) CRs via playtesting. See how the PC fares, and assign rough CRs based on this. (And personally, I think that an encounter of (EL = PAL [party average level]) should be moderate, not tough. If you make EL = PAL*2 or whatever, you can't take into account smaller party sizes - a single PC would be constantly fighting stuff well below his CR and getting crap XP.) A PC should have an 50-50 chance of surviving an encounter with a creature of the same power level, all things being equal. I' m not sure where you guys are getting the idea that a 96% chance of winning is moderate - 96% is near-success, in my book.Third: Add PCs or monsters to either side and see how this increases the power level of that side (the power increase should be the same, no matter which side you use). I postulate that the power increase would be larger at lower levels than at higher levels:When I was doing up the wealth guidelines, I noticed that there was a correlation between magic item prices (for weapons and armor) and the lowest level at which a PC could afford said items. At L1, for armor, it was item bonus (IB) *4 = minimum level (ML). At L2, it was IB * 3 = ML. At L3-4, it was IB * 2.8 = ML. After that, it dropped to *2.6 until around L40, then it slowly decreases.For weapons, it was slightly higher - at L1, it's IB*5 = ML; L2 is IB*4 = ML; then it drops to *3.5 at L3, *3 at L4-5, and *2.8 for L6-40 (then it starts dropping as before).So, say, adding a second L1 PC (or CR 1 monster) would increase that side's power level by, say, *1.5 (yes, I used a decimal - I don't think that increases or decreases in power level are made in whole numbers). Adding a third would increase it by slight smaller number, and so on until you reach a zero-point - the point at which you can't reasonably increase the power level by adding more creatures. In fact, you might even decrease the power level after a certain point (that's just a theory). I'm not sure where this point would be; I'm guessing around 8-10 times the number of opponents - after that, there are simply too many to be an effective challenge, because a) they're getting in each others' way, and b) not all of them could face the opponent (PCs or monsters) at the same time. This is, of course, also a variable, since the monster's size factors in - 20 Tiny rats would be a decent challenge for a party if they all attacked at once, but 20 Large ogres would not - they couldn't all face the PCs at the same time.  For purposes of this system, though, we'll ignore creature size - it's too variable, and it doesn't really add that much to the calculations anyway.So. Let's say you have one PC. You pit him against one monster, get a baseline success rate, and figure out its CR. Then you add a second PC or monster, and a third, and a fourth, and run it again. Then test the single PC against creatures of higher and lower CRs. Then do it at the next higher level, and the next. See how this affects the success rate, and you can make a progression of multipliers and figure out how much the EL would change based on number of party members or opponents and/or average CR for either side (a group of 5 L1 PCs vs. 5 CR 1 monsters would be EL +0; doubling the number of PCs would drop the EL by, say, -2, and increasing the number of monsters would increase it by +2).You pretty well have to assume 1 and 2 are correct (that is, the monster CR is accurate, and the classes are balanced). Although, if the class is over/underpowered, you could simply apply a CR modifier to that any PCs with levels in said class. 3 is easy - just modify the EL. Same with 4 - if the PCs are min-maxed, boost their PAL to reflect the increased power level.</blockquote>

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