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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LordEntrails" data-source="post: 9300145" data-attributes="member: 6804070">Reading through all of this and remember other similar threads and discussions it has always baffled me that people think it is impossible or even hard to challenge high level characters. It's just so foreign to my experience.So I sat back and thought, what do I do to make things challenging for powerful characters? (This can be high magic, optimized, high level characters, or even very good tactical players.)The first realization about how I do this and why it works is that decades ago I made the realization that RAW is simply a guideline. It's not a commandment. Now, it's important you follow up this realization with another, this does not mean you change the player's expectations of the world (i.e. "the rules"), that you fake die rolls, that you change the results of an action on the fly. Consistency is key to player enjoyment. Players must feel that every time they do X, then Y happens (unless Z happens which negates X or Y). Sleep behaves like sleep, a Finger of Death is a Finger of Death, and a Sword of Sharpness behaves like a sword of sharpness.Now, what's the first thing I "adjust"? The encounter rating system. It's not that the CR and XP per day are wrong, they simple don't work for every group. You have to adapt to your group. And most groups when they reach high level, assuming they have started the characters at low level and have played through all the levels as a psuedo-normal pace, are much more capable than a default group is per the encounter guidelines.My last high level group could handle 3-5 past Deadly encounters per adventuring day. But pick up or rotating groups rarely can, regardless of character level.The next thing I "adjust" are the monsters. I often don't bother for low-levels and minions, but for key opponents, and at higher levels, I almost always do. In part it's why I love NPC source books.The simplest adjustments are HP, Damage, AC, Saves. But those are not interesting by themselves after you have done them once or twice (i.e. create a goblin brute, or an ogre champion). This makes the combat 'harder' and the opponents 'tougher'. Next is to change up standard spell lists. No reason an acolyte or archmage needs the spells as listed in the MM. Similarly is adding new actions/reactions/bonus actions to 'standard' NPCs. These two makes the encounters unusual, and harder to predict and plan counter strategies. The last major category of adjustments is kind of the last, replace existing abilities with new ones. There is little reason a CR 30 creature needs 45 different possible actions. Remove all the standard ones. If you ever need them, then just do it (Yes, Elminster can cast any cantrip if they ever need it, but don't bother to confuse the stat block with such things). This keeps the uniqueness of the BBEG, but also makes them usable and playable by the DM.So that's adjusting the NPCs to make the game fun and challenging at high levels. But it's not the only thing needed (and should probably start in tier 2 play). Other things to do are:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Change the definition of success and failure. Each encounter does not need to be about kick in the door, kill the monster.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mix up the terrain. Add hazards and traps. Add elevation & strongpoints.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Change the NPCs objectives and tactics. Maybe they fight to the death, but what about surrender or flight or a totally different object (kill one specific PC and take their head). Change who the NPCs focus on, and give them the abilities to counter that PC (anti-magic to get the wizard; poison or paralysis for the brute, etc).</li> </ul>The one big take-away from these ideas is variety. Change things up. Not every battle is a fight to the death. Not every success is killing the monsters. Not every orc has the same HP or attacks. Not every fight is about killing the wizard (or the barbarian, or...). Not every encounter is an open field where the Party can pick their own tactics.And note how I did not set 'rules' like double HP, make damage 1.5 times, now much XP per adventuring day, etc? That's because no two adventuring parties are the same. We can make guidelines, but not rules because different players, characters and DMs will play differently. (And many of the other posts give great guidelines that work for other tables.)Therefore, each DM needs to learn and develop their own guidelines for each campaign (though if the players stay the same between campaigns this may be very similar from one campaign to the next). What are the tools a DM can use to learn what these adjustments are for their campaign?The first is hidden resources. These are things like waves or BBEG Stages. Things that the PCs don't know about. Waves are a great resource for a DM to learn how capable a party is. Stages can work too, but imo are critical to foreshadow to the party (otherwise it might just be DM fiat to grant a new pool of HP etc). Waves should also be 'logical'. Another wave of ogres need to come from somewhere. If they don't it will just annoy the players. Something to note, don't always use these techniques; remember the previous take-away? Variety.The next tool is to understand that not every encounter needs to have a significant risk of failure. The bandits that raid the party camp at night are easily defeated (killed, captured, chased off), but the encounter can be effective for many reasons. Such as; interrupt a long rest, foreshadow their return, set a since of realism that this place is dangerous (if only to commoners), or even just let the high level party feel powerful, etc. This acceptance gives the DM the ability to try something and if it's not the challenge they expected, then no big deal, it was still a useful encounter.The third to is to realize the NPCs objective may not be to kill the party. A TPK doesn't mean the end. Not at high levels. So the epic beholder and his allies have defeated the party in combat, maybe they refuse to chase a fleeing party because of paranoia of a trap. Maybe the rez the party without their gear and in prison because they have a use for the party (geas anyone?). Again, if the challenges are more complex than kick in the door and kill the monster, defeat is just a setback or new twist to the story that is evolving.And though not really related to high level play at all, if a DM takes the approach of open play and not having a set storyline, that allows these "errors"/"mistakes"/"problems" to instead just be exciting and unexpected turning points in the story.The TLDR is:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mix things up (NPC stat blocks, terrain/locations, definition of success)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There is no set recipe that works for every campaign</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Keep the campaign going by keeping the story open to develop as play progresses</li> </ul></blockquote>

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