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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 2397752" data-attributes="member: 3146">A fair point, but I think you're overstating it. First, not everyone uses point buy (even though I do) and one thing that the standard array is good at is demonstrating priorities. Rolling, you are probably less likely to get get four mediocre stats than to get one higher stat and a few mediocre ones with a poor stat or two.Second, I'm not sure at what point the CoC gets the dex to damage bonus but he doesn't get it starting at first level. To even out a 28 point buy comparison, we should probably look at 8th level (when you could first take Champion of Corellon levels). So the champion started with str 14, dex 16, con 12, int 14, wis 10, cha 10 and now has str 14, dex 18, con 12, int 14, wis 10, cha 10. The fighter started with (lets say) Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 and now has Str 19, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8. With his elven courtblade, the Champion of Correllon will get +9 damage and the fighter will get +6-- +2 for being able to power attack for the greater weapon focus difference. It's still pretty similar.He could if there were a belt of strength +2. Since there isn't, however, he'll have to dex or strength at the +2 mark.It's certainly more flexible and can be more efficient. However, it's important to keep in mind that there's more than one way to add to damage. For instance, taking the 8th level stats and advancing them to 11th level where they may have enough money for the items in question, it's important to note that the Champion of Correllon will be attacking at +17/+12/+7 [+11 BAB, +5 dex (w/gloves), +1 weapon focus] while the fighter will be attacking at +20/+15/+10 [+11 BAB, +7 str (w/ belt), +2 greater weapon focus]. So the fighter can use power attack to turn the attack bonus differential into 6 more points of damage. It's important to remember that strength adds attack and damage for the fighter whereas the CoC only gets to add one ability to his attacks AFAIK.Alternatively, a fighter who wants to beat the Champion of Correllon for damage could spend his money on a better weapon instead of going from a belt +4 to a belt +6. 20kgp should net him one or two plusses of special abilities on the weapon which will easily outdamage the stat booster damage adds. (+2 damage is less than +3.5 from an energy enhancement or even +3 from straight up enhancement bonus +more power attack).True, but so do barbarians, paladins, and high int, multiclassed fighters (at least potentially). The single classed fighter is about the only class that doesn't do skills well. The other classes can be very competitive in damage as well. I chose the fighter as a comparison point because: 1. I think fighters are the basic fighting class from which things should be measured and 2. Fighters are fairly easy to compare.I'm quite sure that finesse fighters can be effective, but it takes a fair amount of skill to create an effective finesse fighter and to keep the finesse fighter effective. My experience indicates that, if I see a random finesse fighter at a con table, he's likely to be underpowered--and if he isn't underpowered, he's making up for his lack of damage dealing capability by doing something else.</blockquote>

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