Champion thought experiment

[Sword of Spirit]

The thread on fighters as skill monkeys got me thinking.

Personally, I think Champions are okay. They are usually a bit weaker than most other fighter subclasses, but they have things that those others don't (such as an initiative bonus and second fighting style) that sometimes makes them the more desirable choice for a character concept.

However, I'm very open to a simple way to improve them. (Honestly, I hope the Brute subclass in UA becomes a choice of some alternate subclass features for Champion, rather than a brand new class with a different theme that better fulfills the simple fighter role. It may sound picky of me, but I really don't like the idea that if I want the more effective simple fighter, it comes prepackaged with a "brutish" theme. Same problem as the Berserker fix called "Zealot". Works great for those who don't mind reskinning theme, but there is some sort of contradictory design philosophies going on there.)

One thing that occurred to me, is that maybe the Champion's theme could encompass the skill monkey warrior hero, at least in a certain sense. There has been lots of talk about how to improve Remarkable Athlete as part of Champion improvements, but perhaps it could be focused on as something that could carry the entire weight of the improvements.

It's late and I'm tired, but the kind of things I'm thinking of might be to rewrite the feature to grant:

-Proficiency bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution checks that you don't already add your proficiency bonus to, and
-Double proficiency bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution checks that you are already proficient in

(Adding a 1/2 proficiency bonus whether or not you are proficient, while simpler, contradicts a basic rule about proficiency bonuses only ever being applied (even if in doubled or halved format) once. You can't add your bonus, plus half your bonus.)

This would mean that if the fighter took the four skills that Remarkable Athlete could apply to, they would effectively end up with Expertise in those four skills, plus proficiency in Initiative and the occasional physical check that doesn't allow for a skill.

The Dex skills would let them be a great roguish sort of hero also.

Anyway, just some late night tired thoughts.

 

[5ekyu]

The thread on fighters as skill monkeys got me thinking.

Personally, I think Champions are okay. They are usually a bit weaker than most other fighter subclasses, but they have things that those others don't (such as an initiative bonus and second fighting style) that sometimes makes them the more desirable choice for a character concept.

However, I'm very open to a simple way to improve them. (Honestly, I hope the Brute subclass in UA becomes a choice of some alternate subclass features for Champion, rather than a brand new class with a different theme that better fulfills the simple fighter role. It may sound picky of me, but I really don't like the idea that if I want the more effective simple fighter, it comes prepackaged with a "brutish" theme. Same problem as the Berserker fix called "Zealot". Works great for those who don't mind reskinning theme, but there is some sort of contradictory design philosophies going on there.)

One thing that occurred to me, is that maybe the Champion's theme could encompass the skill monkey warrior hero, at least in a certain sense. There has been lots of talk about how to improve Remarkable Athlete as part of Champion improvements, but perhaps it could be focused on as something that could carry the entire weight of the improvements.

It's late and I'm tired, but the kind of things I'm thinking of might be to rewrite the feature to grant:

-Proficiency bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution checks that you don't already add your proficiency bonus to, and
-Double proficiency bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution checks that you are already proficient in

(Adding a 1/2 proficiency bonus whether or not you are proficient, while simpler, contradicts a basic rule about proficiency bonuses only ever being applied (even if in doubled or halved format) once. You can't add your bonus, plus half your bonus.)

This would mean that if the fighter took the four skills that Remarkable Athlete could apply to, they would effectively end up with Expertise in those four skills, plus proficiency in Initiative and the occasional physical check that doesn't allow for a skill.

The Dex skills would let them be a great roguish sort of hero also.

Anyway, just some late night tired thoughts.

As a fighter they gain **two** bonus ASI which could be used to gain three skills each iirc the feats and still match the normal ASI rate.

Additionally as Champion they gain half-prof bonus if not skilled for athletics, stealth, sleight hand and acrobatics. Note that arguably this could also apply to untrained tool checks if the gm did not rule those tasks as proficiency required.

If a GM uses variant ability skills, like Str intimidate, the half bonus skills can climb.

So, in theory with normal ASI used for ASI stuff by 19th level they could have a "bonus" of **6** full proficiencies and 4 (minimum) hal-proficiencies skills if they wanted to go that route.

Not arguing this is any sort of optimized DpR strategy white room winner, but it seems like the bonus ASI allow a significant edge on number of skill proficiencies available if one wants to go skill focused.

 

[Tony Vargas]

As a fighter they gain **two** bonus ASI which could be used to gain three skills each iirc the feats and still match the normal ASI rate.

True, iif feats are in use (which, according to WotC's cryptic comments about their own data, seems not to be the case most of the time), and...

...if you are matching the normal ASI rate, you get those bonus feats at 6th, which is not exactly early, and 14th, which is probably about the time most longer campaigns finally peter out.

Additionally as Champion they gain half-prof bonus if not skilled for athletics, stealth, sleight hand and acrobatics.

Yeah, it makes you less bad at things you should be good at, and does nothing if you take the proficiency. Stacking with proficiency or providing expertise is really a good idea.

 

[Satyrn]

-Proficiency bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution checks that you don't already add your proficiency bonus to, and
-Double proficiency bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution checks that you are already proficient in

.

I'd rather just do "+2 bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution checks."

It's simple math, and a simple description fit for a Champion and does pretty much what you're trying for. You could even boost it up to +4 when the Champion gets his last subclass feature

 

[guachi]

A slight alternative to a static bonus, which I like because it stacks with proficiency, is to have a static bonus that adjust by level to conveniently be exactly what 1/2 proficiency (rounded up) would be.

 

[Satyrn]

A slight alternative to a static bonus, which I like because it stacks with proficiency, is to have a static bonus that adjust by level to conveniently be exactly what 1/2 proficiency (rounded up) would be.

I would've suggested that, too, except that just winds up feeling fiddly since it starts at +2 and ends at +3.

I would prefer starting at +2 and then at some point boost it up to +4 so that it feels like it matters and is a significant change.