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<blockquote data-quote="Clint_L" data-source="post: 8928044" data-attributes="member: 7035894">First, this sounds like you actually can't answer the fundamental question &quot;how can beauty be objectively measured?&quot; so you are moving the goalposts: &quot;how can anything be objectively measured, really?&quot;But I think we can all understand how &quot;confidence, eloquence, leadership&quot; are much more objective qualities that can easily be applied across species. Confidence, for example, is contained within the person themselves, leadership can be quantified by how inclined others are to follow them, which does not seem necessarily species dependent to me, and eloquence, which I would define as facility with language, again does not seem species dependent.Confidence in particular seems relevant to this discussion, because it explains how, say, a Warlock is able to power their spells. To me, that can be quantifiable as an internal quality that does not depend at all upon context.I suppose you could argue that beauty also could be entirely internal - it's what we think of our own appearance - but then we get right back to &quot;it's entirely up to the player.&quot;And all of that is setting aside the actual harm that obsession with physical appearance does in the world, which makes it an enormous problem to try to force it into the rules of D&amp;D. I'm not ever going to mention to a teen girl that she needs to consider the relationship between her character's physical appearance and their &quot;confidence, eloquence, and leadership.&quot;Edit: has there ever been one player who did not think about what their character looked like? What is the problem that this minor rules change is meant to address, again?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Clint_L, post: 8928044, member: 7035894"] First, this sounds like you actually can't answer the fundamental question "how can beauty be objectively measured?" so you are moving the goalposts: "how can anything be objectively measured, really?" But I think we can all understand how "confidence, eloquence, leadership" are much more objective qualities that can easily be applied across species. Confidence, for example, is contained within the person themselves, leadership can be quantified by how inclined others are to follow them, which does not seem necessarily species dependent to me, and eloquence, which I would define as facility with language, again does not seem species dependent. Confidence in particular seems relevant to this discussion, because it explains how, say, a Warlock is able to power their spells. To me, that can be quantifiable as an internal quality that does not depend at all upon context. I suppose you could argue that beauty also could be entirely internal - it's what we think of our own appearance - but then we get right back to "it's entirely up to the player." And all of that is setting aside the actual harm that obsession with physical appearance does in the world, which makes it an enormous problem to try to force it into the rules of D&D. I'm not ever going to mention to a teen girl that she needs to consider the relationship between her character's physical appearance and their "confidence, eloquence, and leadership." Edit: has there ever been one player who did not think about what their character looked like? What is the problem that this minor rules change is meant to address, again? [/QUOTE]

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