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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 823030" data-attributes="member: 3051">The rules aren't really clear.  Personally, I'd say "Both", but I'm nice that way.The question really is, does Change Self have an effect that allows a Disguise check, or is it a spell that gives a bonus to normal Disguise checks?  Some spells do the first (Fabricate), others clearly do the second (Chameleon).Since Change Self is an Illusion, NOT a transmutation, it can't be only a normal bonus to the Disguise check, since it's not actually a part of a physical disguise.  There's no preparation needed for the spell; you cast it, illusion drops into place, done.  Now, the DM might require a little prep time while you plan out your disguise, but it wouldn't be anything like the 10-30 minutes a physical disguise takes.  You wouldn't get to use the bonus from a masterwork disguise kit, though, and I usually don't allow Take 10 or 20 in these sorts of checks.On the other hand, what if you wanted to combine this with a physical disguise (which isn't subject to disbelief saves)?  So, you find a good outfit, put on some basic makeup, and then use the illusion to finish.  In that case, would it be like a normal Disguise check, with a +10 bonus against anyone who fails the save?So, that's why I said both.  Casting Change Self by itself should allow an instant Disguise check with a +10 bonus (but no bonus from masterwork disguise kits, and you can't Take 10/20), OR allow you a more generic +10 bonus to normal Disguise opposed rolls if the other guy failed the save.But, that's just my opinion.  If you have to choose, I'd go with option 2.</blockquote>

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