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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Patryn of Elvenshae" data-source="post: 2202778" data-attributes="member: 23094">But, presumably, done in some temporal order.  After all,So, if I can add ears as one part of "using the disguise kit," and then, some twenty minutes later add make-up as part of "using the disguise kit," and these apply to one roll, but I can't cast Alter Self and then six seconds later cast Disguise Self and have them apply to one roll?I call shenanigans.Read it again.  I said, to paraphrase, "Theorum: You can do it.  Proof: Assume you can't do it.  Here's the silly stuff that happens when each step of creating a disguise requires a separate roll.  That's silly and not supported by the rules, therefore you can do it."When you place fake ears on your human, you make a complete disguise.  When you then add fake breasts, you make a new, complete disguise.  You do not create "a partial disguise" and then fill in the gaps with your subsequent make-up; rather, each piece of disguise represents an attempt to make a complete disguise.Other than the obvious problem with your line of reasoning, where do you get the interpretation that Alter Self creates "a complete disguise"?  At best:However:Note that Alter Self does not affect your equipment at all, while Disguise Self does.Note the untyped bonuses.In exactly the same way that adding fake elf ears does not an elven maiden disguise make.Using one spell to create your entire disguise grants you a +10 bonus on the roll (which radiates Transmutation magic).  Using the other spell grants you a +10 bonus on the roll (which radiates Illusion magic, and can be touched to prove it's not there).  Using both grants you a +20 bonus on the roll.Unless, of course, it *is* the same disguise.  The human male (in, for purposes of argument, mithril chainmail) Alters Self into an elven female of looks approximating an elven noblewoman (let's say a particular elven noblewoman).  He then Disguises Self to make his armor, sword, and longbow look like this particular noblewoman's dress, court rapier, and  walking-staff, as well as changing his red-stone Ring of Protection into the noblewoman's blue-stone, slightly glimmery house sigil ring.  His disguise is now complete, and he gains a +20 bonus to the Disguise roll.Should he be viewed by a lesser form of True Seeing, which for argument's sake pierces only Illusions, then he would be revealed as the particular elven noblewoman wearing some unusual gear.  His Disguise roll suffers an effective -10 penalty for that viewer (as Disguise Self is no longer helping the attempt).On the other hand, if you keep the damn wig on, and instead add a false nose ...</blockquote>

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