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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 6013915" data-attributes="member: 48965">But I'm not speaking to how it was presented after DMG 2, and in fact on this I think we're probably in agreement.  That said I think it's a little disingenuous to expect people who didn't like 4e to have bought DMG 2 for clarification/revision/whatever.   I am speaking to DMG 1... where almost every skill challenge is presented with a generic... level = party level... or the example of the rogue on the same page as the chart is based on the rogue's level.  Using just DMG 1, tell me what indication, example, etc. was there that something besides party level was supposed to be used on the chart?  I've given multiple examples of party level being used which is exactly how many people claimed the table was supposed to be used and then were told they were doing it wrong when they found the rules and their applications unsatisfying.</blockquote>