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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6015642" data-attributes="member: 6696971">@<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/pemerton.html" target="_blank">pemerton</a>I think what may be causing the confusion here (and I've seen it more than once) is that the 4e rules texts are organized/formatted differently than prior editions.&nbsp; 4e rules texts have within their task resolution tables (eg, DC to break down door or open lock) an embedded meta-game consideration of level-appropriate challenge for PCs/party.&nbsp; Whereas prior editions didn't include this DM-side tool through which they can appropriately determine &quot;of-level&quot; DCs and their corresponding, fiction-side nature.&nbsp; Prior editions just told you; &quot;Normal Wooden Door - n DC&quot;, &quot;Adamantine Door - n + 10 DC&quot;.I suppose this meta-game tool provided to DMs to determine &quot;level-appropriate&quot; challenges confused people into thinking this was some sort of world building mandate.&nbsp; Its just a guideline/tutorial on what a level-appropriate challenge is for PCs and the corresponding fiction for those DCs.The above is, of course, related to exercises in Task Resolution.&nbsp; When invoking Skill Challenge mechanics, the rules work the same way but there is a subtle, key difference in DM considerations.&nbsp; The Conflict Resolution structure of the Skill Challenge presupposes that the Conflict being Resolved is an actual challenge...lest an actual Skill Challenge become superfluous and, in that case, you should just be performing S'mon's &quot;You are here, what do you do?&quot;&nbsp; You don't compose Skill Challenges to capture the &quot;oh so compelling&quot; trope of &quot;Epic Level adventurers load cargo on their sailing ship for their voyage across the sea.&quot;&nbsp; Meta-game consideration should dictate Skill Challenge DCs as they should be roughly bounded to PC's level for it to be both a challenge and to induce the tension of the specter of failure as a possible outcome.&nbsp; Further, Skill Challenge &quot;task-resolution&quot; (and its corresponding DCs and outcomes) within the greater framework of the &quot;conflict-resolution&quot; of the Skill Challenge should primarily be that of a &quot;fiction-first&quot;, narrative-driving conduit.&nbsp; You are not &quot;world-building&quot; here nor is the maintenance of internal consistency even relevant.&nbsp; You are &quot;scene-building&quot; and thus the &quot;task-resolution&quot; DCs and outcomes MUST be meta-gamed and decoupled from linear cause-and-effect.&nbsp; The idea of trying to constrain Skill Challenge DCs and outcomes to process-simulation for internal consistency of the world is anathema to the entire point of the effort at capturing the relevant fantasy trope.&nbsp; Obviously I know that you know this, but I wonder if people understand the very real differences between task-based resolution and conflict-based resolution in 4e.&nbsp; I see people post things that seem very divorced from my reading of the rules texts, my understanding of them, and my in-play dynamics.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6015642, member: 6696971"] @[URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/pemerton.html"]pemerton[/URL] I think what may be causing the confusion here (and I've seen it more than once) is that the 4e rules texts are organized/formatted differently than prior editions. 4e rules texts have within their task resolution tables (eg, DC to break down door or open lock) an embedded meta-game consideration of level-appropriate challenge for PCs/party. Whereas prior editions didn't include this DM-side tool through which they can appropriately determine "of-level" DCs and their corresponding, fiction-side nature. Prior editions just told you; "Normal Wooden Door - n DC", "Adamantine Door - n + 10 DC". I suppose this meta-game tool provided to DMs to determine "level-appropriate" challenges confused people into thinking this was some sort of world building mandate. Its just a guideline/tutorial on what a level-appropriate challenge is for PCs and the corresponding fiction for those DCs. The above is, of course, related to exercises in Task Resolution. When invoking Skill Challenge mechanics, the rules work the same way but there is a subtle, key difference in DM considerations. The Conflict Resolution structure of the Skill Challenge presupposes that the Conflict being Resolved is an actual challenge...lest an actual Skill Challenge become superfluous and, in that case, you should just be performing S'mon's "You are here, what do you do?" You don't compose Skill Challenges to capture the "oh so compelling" trope of "Epic Level adventurers load cargo on their sailing ship for their voyage across the sea." Meta-game consideration should dictate Skill Challenge DCs as they should be roughly bounded to PC's level for it to be both a challenge and to induce the tension of the specter of failure as a possible outcome. Further, Skill Challenge "task-resolution" (and its corresponding DCs and outcomes) within the greater framework of the "conflict-resolution" of the Skill Challenge should primarily be that of a "fiction-first", narrative-driving conduit. You are not "world-building" here nor is the maintenance of internal consistency even relevant. You are "scene-building" and thus the "task-resolution" DCs and outcomes MUST be meta-gamed and decoupled from linear cause-and-effect. The idea of trying to constrain Skill Challenge DCs and outcomes to process-simulation for internal consistency of the world is anathema to the entire point of the effort at capturing the relevant fantasy trope. Obviously I know that you know this, but I wonder if people understand the very real differences between task-based resolution and conflict-based resolution in 4e. I see people post things that seem very divorced from my reading of the rules texts, my understanding of them, and my in-play dynamics. [/QUOTE]

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