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Message: <blockquote data-quote="coyote6" data-source="post: 3743299" data-attributes="member: 1225">Hard to say, without knowing how much the fluff changes will be reflected by changes in crunch. E.g., the current (3.5e) erinyes and succubus aren't terribly similar; mythologically speaking, they're absolutely different (vengeance-seeking furies vs. seductive sex fiends). But in 4e, they're absolutely the same [because there's only the one entity]. Hrm.If they're going to make sizable changes in the planar cosmology, I hope they go ahead and give a good, clear explanation of the relationship between various outsiders and various deities. The current relationship just bugs me (are celestials the servants of good gods? Sometimes, but sometimes not, apparently. None of the fiends seem to be dedicated servants of evil gods, so when Hextor wants to smite someone, who does he send? He calls the temp service from Hell, apparently). Gods need servants to work through!So, they're defining devils as fallen celestials; celestials are apparently servants of at least some gods; hopefully, evil gods get servants (that don't work for someone else), too. If "celestials" work for evil/malevolent/antagonist gods as well as good -- that's cool, too.Also, I wonder if names like "Baator" are just going to be gone? Hopefully, yugoloth goes -- I always found it to feel too "made up", somehow.So, if devils are humanoids, and insectile ice demons are somehow tied to yugoloths, I'm guessing yugoloths might be buggy fiends (or at least multilimbed). Demons -- demons will be big bestial things, rather than weapon wielders?As a change to existing campaigns, I think this would be annoying & a bit aggravating. They said converting 3.5e campaign/adventure to 4e would be a lot of work, so they wouldn't be producing a conversion document; this shows a glimmer of why it will be so much work. It's not just mechanical changes! That's kind of aggravating, on the one hand (I have a whole lot of 3.x adventures I haven't ran, and I might prefer 4e to 3.x), but exciting on the other (new stuff!).And I really liked the stuff Jacobs, Mona, & co. did in the Demonomicons (and in Green Ronin's Book of Fiends), and this greatly contradicts those (unless you can just pick up Malcanthet, Socothbenoth, etc., from Demonland and drop them into Devilville).For whole new campaigns -- sounds cool. "Ultimates" cosmology -- I think I can dig it.Also, it seems like it would fit okay in Eberron -- you just ignore the stuff about the origins of devils & Asmodeus & the Nine Hells (and you were already doing that in 3.5e!). The "humanoid/not humanoid" split makes at least as much sense for Eberron as "chaos/law". In Eberron, fiends can just be fiends, and "devil" vs. "demon" are just taxonomies created by mortals.</blockquote>

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