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<blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 8081559" data-attributes="member: 5889">There is certainly no reason for such harsh language, we are debating a concept, and in debates we argue. They aren't personal, simply an exchange.Now personally, I'm a crunchy guy, I don't shy away from rules heavy games. However, recently I have played in a Pathfinder 1e game, with some newer players who are not big math people. It has opened my eyes to the difficulty some people have of dealing with modifiers and options. I have watched players struggle with the rules of full round attacks, modifiers such as bardic music, miss chances, and don't get me started on the extra attack from haste. For some people....a little, is a lot.If we look at the bones of 5e, it was designed as a system to simplify rules in favor of DM arbitration, and combat wise to allow a flexibility of movement that was not seen in 3e or 4e's system. 5e's movement system is very freeing, the sheer fact that I can on my turn, move 5 ft, make an attack, move 10 more feet, making another attack, and then move 15 feet and open a door .... opens up a wide range of options in a round. Pathfinder (and 3e's) system for all its benefits, is much more rigid, and I think somewhat to its downfall.Now Levelup is adding in more crunch, so new rules are expected. That doesn't mean we open up the floodgates. There are some additions and adjustments we can make to the OA ruleset that would have a lot of value... and I think that's worth doing. But I don't think going back to the 3e list of OAs is warranted or needed.Its easy to add a lot of rules... the elegance of design is getting a lot of value out of a little complexity. So what OA rules can we add that will really improve the game...without adding a whole list of new ones.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Stalker0, post: 8081559, member: 5889"] There is certainly no reason for such harsh language, we are debating a concept, and in debates we argue. They aren't personal, simply an exchange. Now personally, I'm a crunchy guy, I don't shy away from rules heavy games. However, recently I have played in a Pathfinder 1e game, with some newer players who are not big math people. It has opened my eyes to the difficulty some people have of dealing with modifiers and options. I have watched players struggle with the rules of full round attacks, modifiers such as bardic music, miss chances, and don't get me started on the extra attack from haste. For some people....a little, is a lot. If we look at the bones of 5e, it was designed as a system to simplify rules in favor of DM arbitration, and combat wise to allow a flexibility of movement that was not seen in 3e or 4e's system. 5e's movement system is very freeing, the sheer fact that I can on my turn, move 5 ft, make an attack, move 10 more feet, making another attack, and then move 15 feet and open a door .... opens up a wide range of options in a round. Pathfinder (and 3e's) system for all its benefits, is much more rigid, and I think somewhat to its downfall. Now Levelup is adding in more crunch, so new rules are expected. That doesn't mean we open up the floodgates. There are some additions and adjustments we can make to the OA ruleset that would have a lot of value... and I think that's worth doing. But I don't think going back to the 3e list of OAs is warranted or needed. Its easy to add a lot of rules... the elegance of design is getting a lot of value out of a little complexity. So what OA rules can we add that will really improve the game...without adding a whole list of new ones. [/QUOTE]

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