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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 9380065" data-attributes="member: 7023840">I am going to briefly interject to say that despite the ... heat ... in this discussion, I agree with both you and [USER=7037866]@ezo[/USER] Very briefly-I think that there are two ways to think about making a character. The first, modern way, is to think about what kind of character you want to make, and then use the chargen mini-game to make it. In other words, you are the author of a character. That is a lot of fun! Especially when you have a vision in your head, and you are trying to make it work in the rules. It's the Burger King method- you get to have it YOUR WAY. I do that with 5e. I enjoy doing that. I like to create distinctive and interesting characters and seeing how I can implement my vision within the rules. On the other hand, when I go back to playing older versions of D&D (or OSR, etc.), I like rolling in order (although I prefer 4d6k1 at a minimum). Why? Because there's also something magic about the serendipity of discovering the character through your abilities! In other words, you have no idea what you have, until you see those abilities and try to make sense of it. That is a different type of fun, and I love that as well. It is incredibly freeing to not have to design a character, but to have the character revealed to you, first through the rolls, and then through play, I happen to agree that AD&D (1e) began to make this ... problematic, simply because the ability score issue became so much more pronounced. The advantages of really good scores (at least 15), the insane advantages of an 18 (especially for fighters), and the minimum requirements for certain classes.... 17 charisma for Paladin??? 16 dex for an illusionist???? And then there was the poor monk. S15, W15, D15, and C11. Good luck with that, and if you happened to roll that high ... you sure you want to play a monk?In effect, I'd argue that it was the requirements in AD&D, along with the bonuses starting at 15, that first started us on the path to "choose class first, get the ability scores later."</blockquote>

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