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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sadrik" data-source="post: 3089463" data-attributes="member: 14506">Right. Saves get no easier by simply gaining levels. You have to get more trinkets, feats, stat boosts or spell buffs. But remember saves would not be as difficult to beat.Lets see at 20th level characters have +12 or +6 to their base saves, an average of +9. Ninth level spells give +9. Multiclassing really throws a monkey wrench in the equation too. Base saves are not +6 or +12, they are more like +15. That really skews them in the direction of the players from where I think they intended the game to be. Ignoring the multiclass creep for a moment it is about balanced at high level but at that level it makes lower level spells less effective. That would be the trademark of using a system like this- it makes lower level spells more effective at higher levels.The multiclass thing I see as a problem/loophole that needs to be fixed anyway so I dont mind if it completely wipes out the effectiveness of that tactic.Ah yes that is a slight problem. However, Cloaks/Vests of resistance are very inexpensive (bonus squared x 1000) and they give a flat bonus to all. In my example in the previous post I pretty much maxed out the caster and the defender still had an 8 in 20 chance to save. If the caster was less than maxed out the defender would have a better chance to save. My real concern with this system was making the caster's DC's not effective enough! The opposite of what your worried about!In the psionics system I am sure many a character/creature was felled by a simple 1st level power- (Mind Thrust *20d10 damage*) the same concept here.It is the fundamental difference, I agree. What it does is make lower level spells have a better DC similar to how psionics flatten DC's. I can see a lot of advantages here...Of course!To take this idea a step further: Cha and Wis could form your base will save, Int and Dex could form you base Reflex save and Strength and Constitution could form your base Fort save. This is quickly becoming interesting. And on the spell casting side their DC's could be derived from two stats too.Cleric- wis and chaDruid- wis and intWizard- int and wissorcerer- cha and wisThis would lead to a lot more min maxing. So, I actually dont like it. It is more likely that characters would have more average saves yet the caster who min/maxes would have a doubly powerful DC boost. Cool concept though.The base assumption that these spells will be more effective in this system is slightly flawed- see above. They should be nearly the same effectiveness wise. And... the save or die IMHO is a problem anyway. The high level games I have played in have all been- "save or die" next step "failed roll" next step "spend 10k true res". It got old and annoying after a bit.I think it is just more simple. And I think it is cool side effect that the DC's of lower level spells are still just as effective... (remember in general their effects are not as great as high level spells though).</blockquote>

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