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<blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 3093745" data-attributes="member: 3051">Not to get too far from the original post, but I just want to add a bit to this instead of bumping half a dozen old threads.Problem is, if you do one without the other, you make the problem much worse.&nbsp; The fractional system, applied to BAB and saves, increases both.&nbsp; Removing the extra +2s decreases saves.&nbsp; Doing one without the other just makes multiclassing weak, at least in regards to BAB/saves.IME, there are two other big problems with multiclassing:&gt; Too much stuff at character level 1.&nbsp; x4 skills, max HP... these encourage people to take their first level in a high-skill (Rogue) or high-HP (Barbarian) class, and then never take another level of that class.&nbsp; (Well, okay, they might take a second level; Evasion or Uncanny Dodge are very nice.)&gt; Too much stuff at class level 1 in most classes.&nbsp; Full weapon and armor proficiencies, and even the non-scaling classes like Fighter pack an extra bonus into the first level.For the first one, in the system we started using in my latest campaign, you don't get the x4 skills or max HP at level 1.&nbsp; This, in general, adjusts CRs by 1 (a level 3 character under this system is basically equivalent to a level 2 under the old one).&nbsp; But, adults start at level 3; level 1 characters are small children, level 2s are teenagers.&nbsp; (It's a bit more complex than that; you can't enter a caster class at level 1, for instance.)And for the second, we added weapon proficiency groups (similar to the old AD&amp;D system, but only 8 groups), and most classes only start with 0-2, so multiclassing one level of Ranger doesn't give you all non-exotic weapons.&nbsp; It's a bit too long to go into here.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Spatzimaus, post: 3093745, member: 3051"] Not to get too far from the original post, but I just want to add a bit to this instead of bumping half a dozen old threads. Problem is, if you do one without the other, you make the problem much worse. The fractional system, applied to BAB and saves, increases both. Removing the extra +2s decreases saves. Doing one without the other just makes multiclassing weak, at least in regards to BAB/saves. IME, there are two other big problems with multiclassing: > Too much stuff at character level 1. x4 skills, max HP... these encourage people to take their first level in a high-skill (Rogue) or high-HP (Barbarian) class, and then never take another level of that class. (Well, okay, they might take a second level; Evasion or Uncanny Dodge are very nice.) > Too much stuff at class level 1 in most classes. Full weapon and armor proficiencies, and even the non-scaling classes like Fighter pack an extra bonus into the first level. For the first one, in the system we started using in my latest campaign, you don't get the x4 skills or max HP at level 1. This, in general, adjusts CRs by 1 (a level 3 character under this system is basically equivalent to a level 2 under the old one). But, adults start at level 3; level 1 characters are small children, level 2s are teenagers. (It's a bit more complex than that; you can't enter a caster class at level 1, for instance.) And for the second, we added weapon proficiency groups (similar to the old AD&D system, but only 8 groups), and most classes only start with 0-2, so multiclassing one level of Ranger doesn't give you all non-exotic weapons. It's a bit too long to go into here. [/QUOTE]

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