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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 4505036" data-attributes="member: 61155">I think it would be very easy to abused / skew results with this.  First off, temporary buffs to attack are quite common. Would your system use a character's standard attack bonus, or the specific bonus for the attack that delivered the status effect? Would it account for a 1 round buff to hit? An encounter-long buff to hit? Conditional modifiers? Etc? I also foresee it bulking up solo and elites even more (against non-optimized PCs), or making it vastly easier to defeat them (against characters designed to abuse this system.) Secondly... I'm a level 13 wizard with Str 9, Con 11 and a +3 Amulet of Protection. My Fortitude Defense is 19. A destrachan hits me with Reverberate - which leaves me Stunned (save ends). My +9 modifier is needing to roll a 29 to end that stun - in other word, fight's over for me.  There are plenty of other creatures who have attack bonuses that, when targeting a character's weakest Defense, are going to make it impossible to save against in your system. Both PCs and NPCs have a wide range of Defenses, some strong, some weak. Right now, a weak defense might mean that once a fight, one attack is guaranteed to hit you - but in your system, that one attack could also disable a character for an entire fight.  Honestly, I think it is a bad idea all around. What is the goal of the change, and how do you feel it would enhance the game? There are four real effects of it: 1) A PC hits an NPC with a high defense, and lands a status effect. The PC is rejoicing, since the NPC's high defense made the attack very difficult to land! Unfortunately, the NPC will only suffer a round of it before easily shaking it off. Net effect: Negative. 2) A PC hits an NPC with a low defense, and lands a status effect. That opponent is out of the fight! Yet... at higher levels, this quickly trivializes encounters. Our wizard loads up on "Stunned (save ends)" spells that hit multiple enemies, and fights become a joke. Net effect: Negative.3) An NPC hits a PC with a low defense, and lands a status effect. The PC is stuck with it for much of the fight. If it is a painful enough effect, they might be unable to act at all. Not much fun, and the very thing the current saving throw system was designed to avoid. Net effect: Negative. 4) An NPC hits a PC with a high defense, and the PC quickly shrugs it off. In the long run, perhaps too much of a boost for the ease of encounters, but in the short term, not too big a deal - and makes the player feel like they are able to quickly get back in the action. Net effect: Positive.  Oh, and one final effect: It will slow down the game, as characters have to roll one specific number against a different target DC for every effect on them, and you as the DM need to do the same, instead of simply rolling for a 10 on a d20.  While I can understand the appeal to make the 4E saving throw system feel like the 3.5 saving throw system, I think any attempts to do so will only have a detrimental experience on the game. The 4E saving throw system should probably have been called something else, just to avoid confusion... but the thing to realize is that it is simply a duration mechanic. It isn't designed to represent the difficult of being affected by something - that is what the attack vs Defense mechanic is for.  Trying to change the save mechanic to fit another role is going to profoundly alter the way the game plays - and not, I think, for the better.</blockquote>

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