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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 1305690" data-attributes="member: 2486">Perhaps, but then the sorceror only needs Concentration (at this needn't be maxed at high level) and possibly Spellcraft, with Knowledge (arcana) and Bluff being at the outside.  However, I wasn't really thinking about sorcerors: wizards, with their high Ints and small skill lists can easily max Listen without incurring too much penalty; fighters (especially 'guard' archetypes) should max Listen- their class skill list is broadly useless; clerics benefit from high Wis to reinforce their Listen scores...As Zad has raised, there is the possibility of taking the relevant feats (Cross Class Learning)- or multiclassing.  There is always a possibility that the *character* is predominant, but if you're specialising outside of your class, there out to be some 'opportunity cost'.  Otherwise, it's like the player who insists that his character 'archetype' is a combat god, master spellcaster, spy, diplomat etc.  Character archetypes are well and good, but without balance limitations there are problems of 'archetype inflation'.But crucially, and this is an important point, game balance impacts on archetype.  If your archetype is a sneaky thief, it's no good finding every guard on the planet has maxed Listen and you can be heard by a pack of goons.  If your archetype is the smooth talker, it's pointless if most characters have good Sense Motive scores.  At high levels, abilities diverge (see my previous post)- this is part of the point of character archetypes more than game balance.  Game balance necessary enables character archetype.  Without game balance, there are significant *restrictions* on character archetype, because of the relative nature of (especially opposed) skills: the skills which tend to largely be the most popular and useful.</blockquote>

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