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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 6704588" data-attributes="member: 6801228">As with many times discussions like this pop up amongst gamers, what we are defining is important. For one person Optimization comes in at UA Ranger 1/ Warlock 3/ Rogue 8/ Fighter 8 characters who can explode and reform at will to auto kill enemies. For others it is Wizards with very specific spell chains that render other party members moot. I'll admit, those two could get tiring after a while and as a DM they'd be hard to deal with.But for other people that is called powergaming and it is an attitude of wanting to show up the rest of the party, while optimizing is saying &quot;My wizard is an oracle, what's the best stuff I can get to make him feel like a prophet and scrier (scry-er?)&quot; or &quot;I want to play a fighter with a whip and leather armor who explorers ancient tombs, what should I do so that I'm still contributing to the party?&quot;And before people bold that &quot;still contributing to the party&quot; part and claim that is a false ideal, no it isn't, unless your group and player greatly enjoy escort missions where the goal is to make sure the that the ranger with a 6 Dex (-2) who only fights by throwing darts at enemies dealing no damage and wears no armor (giving him an AC of 8), because he can't contribute. Any fight you get in, he can't effectively deal with the enemy. Now maybe you play in an intrigue campaign, but then what do you do with a character who can't find clues or interact socially? I'm not saying people can't have fun this way, but the pendulum swings both ways. It doesn't matter if you groan and say &quot;Redgar's turn guys, he'll deal 100 damage to all enemies and kill everything again, fight over, again&quot; or &quot;Trimble's turn guys, he'll miss and that gnoll's gonna drop him again, ready to heal him, again?&quot;Everything in moderation. Whether it be optimization or &quot;I'd never play with an optimizer&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 6704588, member: 6801228"] As with many times discussions like this pop up amongst gamers, what we are defining is important. For one person Optimization comes in at UA Ranger 1/ Warlock 3/ Rogue 8/ Fighter 8 characters who can explode and reform at will to auto kill enemies. For others it is Wizards with very specific spell chains that render other party members moot. I'll admit, those two could get tiring after a while and as a DM they'd be hard to deal with. But for other people that is called powergaming and it is an attitude of wanting to show up the rest of the party, while optimizing is saying "My wizard is an oracle, what's the best stuff I can get to make him feel like a prophet and scrier (scry-er?)" or "I want to play a fighter with a whip and leather armor who explorers ancient tombs, what should I do so that I'm still contributing to the party?" And before people bold that "still contributing to the party" part and claim that is a false ideal, no it isn't, unless your group and player greatly enjoy escort missions where the goal is to make sure the that the ranger with a 6 Dex (-2) who only fights by throwing darts at enemies dealing no damage and wears no armor (giving him an AC of 8), because he can't contribute. Any fight you get in, he can't effectively deal with the enemy. Now maybe you play in an intrigue campaign, but then what do you do with a character who can't find clues or interact socially? I'm not saying people can't have fun this way, but the pendulum swings both ways. It doesn't matter if you groan and say "Redgar's turn guys, he'll deal 100 damage to all enemies and kill everything again, fight over, again" or "Trimble's turn guys, he'll miss and that gnoll's gonna drop him again, ready to heal him, again?" Everything in moderation. Whether it be optimization or "I'd never play with an optimizer" [/QUOTE]

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