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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4978993" data-attributes="member: 4937">Which is fine, but it strays close to saying systems like GURPS or CoC are badwrongfun.&nbsp; Let's however say that they are bad design, despite the wide acclaim that such systems have recieved for their design.&nbsp; Saying that RP disadvantages like 'dumb' shouldn't exist in a mechanical form at all is pretty much the same as saying that RP advantages (courage, alertness, vast knowledge) shouldn't exist in a mechanical form at all.&nbsp; Now, there are some arguments in favor of that view, and if you follow that view I suggest playing oD&amp;D or similar systems without a skill subsystem however there are also problems with that view, the most famous of which being that you are now unable to play anyone smarter, wiser, and more intelligent than you are.You shouldn't take it.&nbsp; I don't think the line between mechanics and RP is so clearly drawn in the case of social skills.&nbsp; I think we can only draw the line clearly by not RPing at all and leaving everything up to mechanics.&nbsp; If a character says, &quot;I attempt to persuade Queen Arlimneus to loan us her personal gaurd for the defense of the bridge.&quot;, then that clearly draws the lines between mechanics and roleplay, but it does so at the expense of all role-play.&nbsp; If the character actually says in character to Queen Arlimneus what his character says in an attempt to persuade the Queen, then the line becomes blurry because we can't easily ignore that the character called the queen a strumpet when we are attempting to adjudicate how the queen responds to the character. In most RPGs character grows and changes all the time, both by acquiring new experiences and by acquiring new skills, feats, and abilities.&nbsp; If playing out a limitation is so rewarding, why is the focus of your argument how easily you ought to be able to escape them?&nbsp; A character can grow and change in lots of ways that don't have to do with suddenly becoming smarter, and that is to be expected, since in the real world most people above a certain age (let's just randomly pick a number, like, I don't know... 5) don't appreciably seem to get any smarter no matter how much they change.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 4978993, member: 4937"] Which is fine, but it strays close to saying systems like GURPS or CoC are badwrongfun. Let's however say that they are bad design, despite the wide acclaim that such systems have recieved for their design. Saying that RP disadvantages like 'dumb' shouldn't exist in a mechanical form at all is pretty much the same as saying that RP advantages (courage, alertness, vast knowledge) shouldn't exist in a mechanical form at all. Now, there are some arguments in favor of that view, and if you follow that view I suggest playing oD&D or similar systems without a skill subsystem however there are also problems with that view, the most famous of which being that you are now unable to play anyone smarter, wiser, and more intelligent than you are. You shouldn't take it. I don't think the line between mechanics and RP is so clearly drawn in the case of social skills. I think we can only draw the line clearly by not RPing at all and leaving everything up to mechanics. If a character says, "I attempt to persuade Queen Arlimneus to loan us her personal gaurd for the defense of the bridge.", then that clearly draws the lines between mechanics and roleplay, but it does so at the expense of all role-play. If the character actually says in character to Queen Arlimneus what his character says in an attempt to persuade the Queen, then the line becomes blurry because we can't easily ignore that the character called the queen a strumpet when we are attempting to adjudicate how the queen responds to the character. In most RPGs character grows and changes all the time, both by acquiring new experiences and by acquiring new skills, feats, and abilities. If playing out a limitation is so rewarding, why is the focus of your argument how easily you ought to be able to escape them? A character can grow and change in lots of ways that don't have to do with suddenly becoming smarter, and that is to be expected, since in the real world most people above a certain age (let's just randomly pick a number, like, I don't know... 5) don't appreciably seem to get any smarter no matter how much they change. [/QUOTE]

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