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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Steampunkette" data-source="post: 8253520" data-attributes="member: 6796468">D&D, more than any game system I've ever known, has something I like to call "Metanarrative Mechanics". Things like the Vancian Spellcasting idea (which is far from what Vance wrote, as noted). It makes massive assumptions about the structure of magic in any given setting, for example. They are to writing what firmware is to computer engineering. Not quite Software (Fluff) and not quite Hardware (Crunch).Character races are often presented as a sort of Metanarrative Mechanic. It's why Elves are immune to sleep and Trance for 4 hours, after all, even though there's nothing in "Elfdom" within popular fantasy outside of D&D that makes them so. It was a Chainmail mechanic to give them a rock paper scissors advantage against the undead faction, but it became a core identifier of "D&D Elfiness".Even in settings where that sort of mechanic or identity isn't actually -needed-, it is generally preserved just because "That's what D&D Elfs are like".A lot of the metanarrative comes from previous editions. Not just Chainmail, but things like Dual-Classing and Multi-Classing from earlier editions shape our perceptions of what an elf is or isn't and shapes how designers create mechanics going forward. Which is why you -could- make a 5e Elf Barbarian at launch but wind up with poor stat bonuses to support your character, regardless of personal narrative. Then D&D went OGL and gave "D&D Elves" to everyone, including Pathfinder.So yes. I think Dark Sun is D&D. Because metanarrative elements like these existed. There were dragons on Athas, but they're gone save the Sorcerer-Kings' aspirations. There's Vancian Casting, but it is inherently dangerous/destructive to use. Athas even exists in the shared "Mindspace" of D&D through Planescape and other metanarrative ideas, because it is -explicitly- difficult to reach. In the Black Spine Adventures Gith managed to make it to Athas through a single portal, but once it was closed they became trapped on "this" side, forever.In the very limited description I proffered and your rebuttal of it, you shot down pretty much every metanarrative concept I put up as "These things are Quintessentially D&D", though granted I did focus on physical elements like spells, magic items, and creatures. That then spawned a different side-discussion about whether or not your game is or isn't "Really" D&D. This was not my intention in presenting those things and I apologize.It's not and shouldn't be "This is a game that doesn't have Dungeons -and- Dragons in it, therefore it is not Dungeons and Dragons!" it should be: "These are quintessential elements of D&D that immediately spring to mind and help shape any world due to the metanarrative concepts tied to them, which is why we're saying D&D isn't as 'Generic Fantasy' as a lot of people seem to think. Stripping them away does not remove the fact that saying 'D&D in Space' immediately conjures them because they're a huge part of what D&D's identity is, at it's core".And then through miscommunication my statement became an insult, rather than an explanation.Though, yeah, my Big Mac analogy fell flat on it's face because I was having issues describing the metanarrative difference between D&D and the d20 system through what at the time seemed adequate allegory.1) D&D is Greyhawk. They were developed, hand in hand, as Gary Gygax's personal world and system after he and Arnesen and their friends reached the limits of what they could do with Chain Mail in the early 70s. That's where a lot of the metanarrative elements come from, like the aforementioned Elf-Trance and Sleep-Immunity. Something that Forgotten Realms included in it's elves because Greenwood based his setting on the D&D game system, since that was the system he was using, and the metanarrative elements carried over.It isn't a hodge-podge. It's a very specific fantasy that has been put into different settings and identities, but there's a reason Mordenkainen can be found in Curse of Strahd and Bigby's Grasping Hand is still a spell in Dragonlance.2) I -wholehearedly- agree! If something doesn't fit your setting/narrative you wanna tell, cut it, unless you can find some new angle to insert it that fits what you want to do. There are no Catfolk in the Ashen Lands. But I have come to like the idea of Sorcerers as the "Magical 1%" narrative. Makes for an interesting sociological angle to play with. It's also why I wound up giving Bards Patrons. Not Warlock Patrons, but explicit narrative patrons as rich people paying their way in the world.3) Restriction can breed creativity. Or frustration. Collaboration is almost always preferred, in my book. Even if that means someone doesn't get to play -exactly- what they want. For example I won't let anyone play a Werewolf at my table 'cause it's a major hassle for me to balance encounters and the like. But they can play a Shifter Barbarian and RP their character "Wolfing Out" when they rage. Y'know, so long as werewolves are a thing in the setting that it's appropriate for a character to play.S'okay! I'll go ahead and stop, at this point, as well. But I spent much of yesterday avoiding ENWorld because I knew the insult I had caused, however unintentionally, and wanted to do my best to avoid it, again, when I replied. I really am sorry.</blockquote>

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