Character Expectation, Limits By Level and Class, and Specialists

[Minigiant]

This might sound like an obvious point, but the fighter should be the best character in a fight. Other classes might have nifty tricks, powerful spells, and other abilities, but when it’s time to put down a monster without dying in the process, the fighter should be our best class. A magic sword might make you better in a fight, but a fighter of the same level is still strictly better. Perhaps a spell such as haste lets you attack more often, but the fighter is still either making more attacks or his or her attacks are more accurate or powerful.​

I reread this part of the Fighter Design Goals article and remembered something, I believe it was Mearls, said at PAX. It seems to at a given level, the highest attack bonus or greater number of attacks is owned by the fighter. Actually not does the fighter have the greatest bonus or number of attacks; it is the only one with that high bonus.

This sets an interesting precedent if this design mentality is used for the whole edition. The X class is the best and Y. Fighters have the best accuracy, damage and/or most attacks. The Rogue is the best at hiding, disabling traps, and/or opening locks. So whenever a class received the ability that that another class was supposed to be the best at, the first class (the non-best one) had to have a strictly worse version.

To put it in perspective, I played a game of 3E with a DM with a mentality the X class had to be the best at Y. All his house rules were about enforcing this.

• Wizards could cast haste at level 5. But Fighters had the most attacks. So Fighters received a mysterious bonus attack at full BAB when full attacking at level 5. Therefore at level 6, the fighter has a +6/+6/+1 full attack.
• And the Monk was the fastest. So the monk got +10 ft speed at level 1 to match the barbarian. And the it increased to +30 ft at level 5 to match haste. Soon after the monk was the fastest thing alive. He could really move.
• And the rogue was the best lockpick. So knock just gave a 1/2 caster level bonus to Open Locks. And rogue could pick Arcane Locks with sticks.

Basically the best had to be maintained and every feat, spell, and magic item had to be shifted, adjusted, or rewritten to support this.



And it seems 5E is taking this route. Or something similar. Whenever a spellcaster gets a spell, a class gets a feature, or a character can "afford" a magic item that shifts into another class's specialty, it can't be greater than the specialist. Whatever level the wizard gets his 5d6 fireball spell, the fighter must deal more than ~18 damage in combat repeated. Essentially everything would be based on a massive Page 42. But it won't just be damage. Single target damage for wizards, Multiple target damage, Number of Attacks, And Attack bonus for fighters. Number of Skill bonus for rogues. Healed HP for clerics. Social Pillar bonus for bard/paladin, Exploration Pillar bonus for rogue/ranger/warlock.

Something like:

Level 5 Maximums
Damage: 25 (for fighter)
Area damage: 20 (for wizard)
Unarmed damage: 20 (for monk)
Accuracy: +8 (for fighter)
Hit points: 40 (for barbarian)
Healing: 10 HP (for cleric)
Skill monkeyiing: 7 skills (for rogue)
Opening Lock bonus: +10 (for rogue)
Trap Finding Limit: 25 (for rogue)
Charm bonus: +10 for (bard)
Speed: 60 ft (for monk)

So a 5th level's charm person cannot grant a bonus higher than +10. A pair of boots of speed that is increases a character's speed to 70ft is not appropriate for a level 5 party. The Slayer theme cannot bring a level 5 cleric's melee damage higher than 25. No background can grant more than 7 skills at level 5.

Anyone else seeing something like that?

 

[DEFCON 1]

I understand what you're saying... and I think that if designed and balanced correctly... much of what you are saying is probably true. And magic spells and magic items will be designed and built not to go over these "under the hood" maximums they have in place.

So for instance... the Haste spell (for example) might grant you +5 ft of speed and an extra attack each round. Well, if the Monk already has a speed 10 ft faster than any other class, and the Fighter already has two additional attacks over any other class... then Haste doesn't impinge on that. Whomever received the spell is still 5 ft slower than the Monk, and has one less attack then the Fighter.

The Knock spell might grant any character a +5 bonus to Dexterity checks to Open Locks. But if the Rogue who has a Background and is skilled in opening locks has a bonus of +10 already... then again, their niche has not been impinged upon.

It's going to result in a very delicate balancing act in design, if we assume they are wanting to get that detailed about maintain niche protection. Personally? I suspect that what will eventually come out of everything will not be that the Fighter reigns supreme in EVERY single facet of every single combat system that gets put in place, because that would just be too much to ask for in trying to balance (as well as keep ahead of the peanut gallery who you just know would start tearing the system apart and start broadcasting on message boards how if you took said theme, with said feats, and said magic items and got buffed with said spells that Ah Ha!!! Character X now surpasses the Fighter in minor Y ability! WotC LIED to us!!! And WotC sucks and can't design a game!!! Boo!!!)

Instead... I think that we will just look at the entire package and will be able to say that yes, overall the Fighter reigns supreme in combat, even with buffs and items that another class might take. With the right distribution, the Rogue might be able to surpass the Fighter in "Advantage-granting Opportunity Attacks within the Tactical Minis module"... but that one small facet does not push the Rogue past the Fighter overall.

 

[Grimmjow]

Yes. Each class has to be completely different from the other classes in the game. Each class needs to be completely different from the other classes in combat though also. All caster classes should cast spells the same way, they should have unique ways to do it.

 

[Shadeydm]

Niche protection isn't a bad idea if done right. Otherwise some classes can be non optimal or even obsolete.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

How about you limit magical enhancement of skills and such to the existing ability of the user?

First of all, declare that all bonuses that come from magic DO NOT STACK.

Then, spells or abilities that give you a bonus to hit are limited by your existing bonus to hit. Bonuses to skills are limited to existing skill bonuses. Speed bonuses cannot do more than double. Und so weiter..

 

[BobTheNob]

Interesting thought. I am concerned about how deep a rabit hole like this might actually go, but interesting none the less.

 

[Minigiant]

How about you limit magical enhancement of skills and such to the existing ability of the user?

First of all, declare that all bonuses that come from magic DO NOT STACK.

Then, spells or abilities that give you a bonus to hit are limited by your existing bonus to hit. Bonuses to skills are limited to existing skill bonuses. Speed bonuses cannot do more than double. Und so weiter..

It's less avoiding stacking and more of the idea that each class gets a specialty or major aspect and that niche is protected at all costs from any other single source.