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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 6413158">The character/player dichotomy has long been a problem for exactly the reasons presented above.&nbsp; In-game things should be sorted out with in-game skills and abilities, ie: if your wizard is smart he solves the thinky puzzles, not the idiot playing him.&nbsp; It's a great reason to use &quot;secret&quot; information through passing notes, that way when Bob the Wizard figures out the puzzle, even if his player doesn't, you pass him a note explaining what exactly it is he figured out.&nbsp; Just because Bob never graduated high-school should not preclude him from playing a smart character.&nbsp; Likewise Joe the accountant shouldn't be pigeon-holed into the smart role when he would rather play Ug the Barbarian.&nbsp; There are times when player action is necessary of course, but these things should be kept to a minimum.&nbsp; If you're trying to make what is essentially a skill challenge last an hour or more....it should either be very very complicated and difficult to roll.&nbsp; Simple as that.&nbsp; The challenge should be structured and ordered to basically only let one person go at a time, and it should be skill-limited in order to limit who can do anything at all.&nbsp; Honestly it's going to need to be something really darn tootin special to last upwards of an hour, especially if it is something in game that is taking under a few minutes.&nbsp; To great of a time differential breaks immersion, generates boredom and on the whole is confusing.&nbsp; None of which promote creative thinking or even slightly encourage the players to become involved.The short short short version: In game puzzles, problems and quandaries should be solved with in-game capabilities.&nbsp; DMs should supply 'secret information' to the players who successfully made their appropriate checks.&nbsp; While it should be on the player to Role as much as Roll, that's a different issue entirely.&nbsp; I address that problem by offering &quot;RP bonuses&quot;, a +1 or +2 to any roll in which the player also makes an effort to role play it out.Because at the end of the day, making players solve the puzzles with player skills is often quite contrary to having players RP their characters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 6413158"] The character/player dichotomy has long been a problem for exactly the reasons presented above. In-game things should be sorted out with in-game skills and abilities, ie: if your wizard is smart he solves the thinky puzzles, not the idiot playing him. It's a great reason to use "secret" information through passing notes, that way when Bob the Wizard figures out the puzzle, even if his player doesn't, you pass him a note explaining what exactly it is he figured out. Just because Bob never graduated high-school should not preclude him from playing a smart character. Likewise Joe the accountant shouldn't be pigeon-holed into the smart role when he would rather play Ug the Barbarian. There are times when player action is necessary of course, but these things should be kept to a minimum. If you're trying to make what is essentially a skill challenge last an hour or more....it should either be very very complicated and difficult to roll. Simple as that. The challenge should be structured and ordered to basically only let one person go at a time, and it should be skill-limited in order to limit who can do anything at all. Honestly it's going to need to be something really darn tootin special to last upwards of an hour, especially if it is something in game that is taking under a few minutes. To great of a time differential breaks immersion, generates boredom and on the whole is confusing. None of which promote creative thinking or even slightly encourage the players to become involved. The short short short version: In game puzzles, problems and quandaries should be solved with in-game capabilities. DMs should supply 'secret information' to the players who successfully made their appropriate checks. While it should be on the player to Role as much as Roll, that's a different issue entirely. I address that problem by offering "RP bonuses", a +1 or +2 to any roll in which the player also makes an effort to role play it out. Because at the end of the day, making players solve the puzzles with player skills is often quite contrary to having players RP their characters. [/QUOTE]

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