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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 6419826" data-attributes="member: 5143"><p>My first step in creating or even running an adventure is for me to visualize a scene. I get to a section of a prewritten adventure that says "The thing the PCs want is on the second floor of a building that has a window facing an alley. The PCs must climb(DC 15) or find some other way up. There is nothing else in the alley." then even before I've said "There are no boxes in the alley", it has been established by the book.</p><p></p><p>Even if I'm running an adventure I wrote myself and even if I'm making it up on the fly, I go through the same process. I visualize what I imagine the location looks like and then I allow my players to ask questions about it. But I don't change anything from my original visualization. This is my way of staying impartial. I didn't know the PCs were going to try to use boxes to get up there. So, I didn't plan for it in advance.</p><p></p><p>IMHO, this makes the world feel much more real since it doesn't change in order to make the PCs plans conveniently possible. If every time a PC says "Hey, is this around?" and the answer is yes, the world becomes very unbelievable to me: "Of COURSE it is. Anything we could ever want is always around the moment we ask for it. Seems way too coincidental to be real."</p><p></p><p></p><p>And I'd be happy to allow that. It just requires the PCs to spend the time and effort to track down boxes in order to build their stairs. Which takes more time than simply climbing up without the boxes. That's the point I want to get across to the PCs. Coming up with certain plans requires more time and effort than other plans.</p><p></p><p>Which can make certain plans "better" than others. I want my players to come up with the "better" ideas instead of just saying yes to any old poor plan they come up with.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think if solutions work or don't work fairly logically based on the available information then it's fine. If a DM frames a scene in such a way that there IS only one answer to the problem then having to come up with that solution is perfectly fine to me. That's the situation we are in, why would we be angry that solutions that can't work in this situation DON'T work in this situation?</p><p></p><p>I'm sure we could get angry at the DM for coming up with the situation in the first place. But I certainly wouldn't. I take it as a challenge to come up with the solution instead of complaining that the DM isn't running the kind of problem I'd like to see.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Wow...I don't even know what to say. We've had this exact same thing happen to us repeatedly in games we've played in. We shrugged and said "Damn...we captured the stupid kobold who can't help us(or won't help us...maybe he's pretending to be dumb). That's too bad. I guess we'll come up with another way to get the information we need."</p><p></p><p>If a player got angry at me because one of my NPCs wouldn't tell the party something that they felt they should know, I would show that player the door for being way too entitled. As the DM, I get to decide what my NPCs know, how smart they are, what they feel like sharing when you capture them, and so on. If I decide they won't tell you something, then they won't tell you something.</p><p></p><p>This reads like this to me:</p><p>Player: "We don't kill the kobold...See? I bet the DM didn't think of that! He expected us to kill the kobolds, but I'm not going to. Now we'll get the information from the kobold that the DM didn't want us to have! See, look at me, I'm so smart! I come up with great plans!"</p><p>DM: "The kobold doesn't know anything."</p><p>Player: "WHAT!?!? But I captured him when you weren't expecting us to! I beat you! You can't just shut me down! I beat you fair and square! Screw this, I'm going to find a DM that gives me what I want!"</p><p></p><p></p><p>Technically, it doesn't make it "more difficult", it just makes it take longer. I like to get the same point across to my players. If their plan involves doing something long and tedious then I want them as players to understand that their characters are going through that process and make their decisions accordingly. I will sometimes add some extra description and make them make some more rolls in order to simulate this process to the players.</p><p></p><p>After all, it's really easy to say "We spend the next month hauling away stones from the tunnel entrance in order to clear a path". But most of the players wouldn't be willing to sign up for a month's worth of backbreaking labor.</p><p></p><p>So, if that is their plan, I'll make sure the players are as bored as their characters for at least a couple of minutes of game time. I try not to make this go on TOO long, because you are right, at a certain point it just uses up game time for no good reason. But for immersion purposes, yes, I'm more than willing to use up some game time on playing through some boring stuff. This just encourages the players to come up with an exciting solution to the problem next time instead of the boring solution.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 6419826, member: 5143"] My first step in creating or even running an adventure is for me to visualize a scene. I get to a section of a prewritten adventure that says "The thing the PCs want is on the second floor of a building that has a window facing an alley. The PCs must climb(DC 15) or find some other way up. There is nothing else in the alley." then even before I've said "There are no boxes in the alley", it has been established by the book. Even if I'm running an adventure I wrote myself and even if I'm making it up on the fly, I go through the same process. I visualize what I imagine the location looks like and then I allow my players to ask questions about it. But I don't change anything from my original visualization. This is my way of staying impartial. I didn't know the PCs were going to try to use boxes to get up there. So, I didn't plan for it in advance. IMHO, this makes the world feel much more real since it doesn't change in order to make the PCs plans conveniently possible. If every time a PC says "Hey, is this around?" and the answer is yes, the world becomes very unbelievable to me: "Of COURSE it is. Anything we could ever want is always around the moment we ask for it. Seems way too coincidental to be real." And I'd be happy to allow that. It just requires the PCs to spend the time and effort to track down boxes in order to build their stairs. Which takes more time than simply climbing up without the boxes. That's the point I want to get across to the PCs. Coming up with certain plans requires more time and effort than other plans. Which can make certain plans "better" than others. I want my players to come up with the "better" ideas instead of just saying yes to any old poor plan they come up with. I think if solutions work or don't work fairly logically based on the available information then it's fine. If a DM frames a scene in such a way that there IS only one answer to the problem then having to come up with that solution is perfectly fine to me. That's the situation we are in, why would we be angry that solutions that can't work in this situation DON'T work in this situation? I'm sure we could get angry at the DM for coming up with the situation in the first place. But I certainly wouldn't. I take it as a challenge to come up with the solution instead of complaining that the DM isn't running the kind of problem I'd like to see. Wow...I don't even know what to say. We've had this exact same thing happen to us repeatedly in games we've played in. We shrugged and said "Damn...we captured the stupid kobold who can't help us(or won't help us...maybe he's pretending to be dumb). That's too bad. I guess we'll come up with another way to get the information we need." If a player got angry at me because one of my NPCs wouldn't tell the party something that they felt they should know, I would show that player the door for being way too entitled. As the DM, I get to decide what my NPCs know, how smart they are, what they feel like sharing when you capture them, and so on. If I decide they won't tell you something, then they won't tell you something. This reads like this to me: Player: "We don't kill the kobold...See? I bet the DM didn't think of that! He expected us to kill the kobolds, but I'm not going to. Now we'll get the information from the kobold that the DM didn't want us to have! See, look at me, I'm so smart! I come up with great plans!" DM: "The kobold doesn't know anything." Player: "WHAT!?!? But I captured him when you weren't expecting us to! I beat you! You can't just shut me down! I beat you fair and square! Screw this, I'm going to find a DM that gives me what I want!" Technically, it doesn't make it "more difficult", it just makes it take longer. I like to get the same point across to my players. If their plan involves doing something long and tedious then I want them as players to understand that their characters are going through that process and make their decisions accordingly. I will sometimes add some extra description and make them make some more rolls in order to simulate this process to the players. After all, it's really easy to say "We spend the next month hauling away stones from the tunnel entrance in order to clear a path". But most of the players wouldn't be willing to sign up for a month's worth of backbreaking labor. So, if that is their plan, I'll make sure the players are as bored as their characters for at least a couple of minutes of game time. I try not to make this go on TOO long, because you are right, at a certain point it just uses up game time for no good reason. But for immersion purposes, yes, I'm more than willing to use up some game time on playing through some boring stuff. This just encourages the players to come up with an exciting solution to the problem next time instead of the boring solution. [/QUOTE]
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