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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6419847" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I think it depends a lot on what <em>this</em> is. If <em>this</em> is a spare holy avenger, then sure. But if <em>this</em> is a box in an alley, or a beard on a dead wizard, then not so much.</p><p></p><p>I live in an inner urban area with lots of lanes, alleys, etc. Even with regular garbage collection, local government employees whose job it is to keep the streets clean, etc, there is still quite often stuff lying around in lanes. Not to mention (if one wanted to get elevation) the rubbish bins, parked cars, etc. On those occasions when I've need to get over 7' and 8' gates blocking off lanes between houses (because I've lost or forgotten front door keys, and know that the back door is open), I've had no trouble finding rubbish bins to stand on to get a bit of elevation.</p><p></p><p>For me, an alley in a (pseudo-)mediaeval town or city with no junk in it doesn't make the world feel more real. It makes me want to know who is the obsessive NPC going around cleaning up all the alleys!</p><p></p><p>My more general point, I guess, is that in my experience many GMs run campaign worlds that are far more austere than real life.</p><p></p><p>I get my immersive quota of boredom from real life (domestic chores and marking exams). I wouldn't want to play with a GM who deliberately set out to have the players be bored.</p><p></p><p>And when it comes to breaking into a second-story window, I don't see that a DC 15 climb check is inherently more exciting than climbing up a pile of boxes, lumber and hay bales.</p><p></p><p>In that case it was win/win - we saved our GM the problem of showing us the door! So you should be thanking us on behalf our our GM!</p><p></p><p>Well, I can tell you how it was for me and the guys I was playing with. It was already pretty clear that the GM sucked and was a grade-A railroader. The adventure was tedious and predictable. We tried capturing and interrogating the kobold as a way of breaking out of the railroad and becoming more proactive in the situation (eg taking the fight to the kobolds rather than waiting to find out whatever was meant to happen next on the GM's pre-authored timeline). And the GM roadblocked us.</p><p></p><p>What, up until that point, had been pretty clear, now became crystal clear. So we got out while it was still early in the university year, thereby leaving the GM the opporunity to find some new players before all the groups firmed up for the remainder of the year.</p><p></p><p>The principle that "I get to decide what my NPCs know, how smart they are, what they feel like sharing when you capture them, and so on. If I decide they won't tell you something, then they won't tell you something" is in my view a poor principle. What is the point of the players even turning up, if their action declarations have no chance of affecting things? In the context of AD&D, for instance, there is a CHA stat - but the GM didn't make a reaction roll. There is a morale stat - but the GM didn't make a morale check. There is the monster's INT stat - which the GM ignored. </p><p></p><p>I don't think I've ever met a player who would put up with this in the context of combat resolution - having the GM fiat the effects (or non-effects) of declared attacks without regard to the rules for attack bonus, AC, hit points etc. We weren't interested in putting up with it in the non-combat context either.</p><p></p><p>And it betokens a bigger issue, too. The GM has shown that he has no interest in framing situations that his players are interested in. We clearly wanted to get some intel to run a raid on the kobolds. That's a competely viable scenario for first level PCs to engage in (look at KotB, for instance) and was a competely smooth fit with the story so far. The GM blocked it because he wanted to exercise sole control over the content of the fiction.</p><p></p><p>I'm glad we booted him. Instead of a bad D&D experience that probably would have fizzled out over the next few weeks or months, I started a group in which I made friends who I'm still close to over 20 years later. And, in this group, I had some experiences with fantasy RPGing that, in respect of dramatic impact and emotional power, I would never have imagined were possible back when I was reading Gygax's rulebooks and playing Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks.</p><p></p><p>And it's got nothing to do with "Screw this, I'm going to find a GM who gives me what I want!" - unless by "gives me what I want" you mean "runs a game that's remotely interesting and enjoyable". I was the GM that took over, and have been GMing continually for the whole time since. And anyone can read my actual play posts on these boards and see that the PCs in my game don't always get what they want.</p><p></p><p>But the players get a game where their choices and desires make a meaningful difference to the content of the shared fiction. Which, for me, is the key. That's why my default instinct is to say yes to the beard, and to see where the players want to take it, rather than say no and make them dance to my pre-written tune.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6419847, member: 42582"] I think it depends a lot on what [I]this[/I] is. If [I]this[/I] is a spare holy avenger, then sure. But if [I]this[/I] is a box in an alley, or a beard on a dead wizard, then not so much. I live in an inner urban area with lots of lanes, alleys, etc. Even with regular garbage collection, local government employees whose job it is to keep the streets clean, etc, there is still quite often stuff lying around in lanes. Not to mention (if one wanted to get elevation) the rubbish bins, parked cars, etc. On those occasions when I've need to get over 7' and 8' gates blocking off lanes between houses (because I've lost or forgotten front door keys, and know that the back door is open), I've had no trouble finding rubbish bins to stand on to get a bit of elevation. For me, an alley in a (pseudo-)mediaeval town or city with no junk in it doesn't make the world feel more real. It makes me want to know who is the obsessive NPC going around cleaning up all the alleys! My more general point, I guess, is that in my experience many GMs run campaign worlds that are far more austere than real life. I get my immersive quota of boredom from real life (domestic chores and marking exams). I wouldn't want to play with a GM who deliberately set out to have the players be bored. And when it comes to breaking into a second-story window, I don't see that a DC 15 climb check is inherently more exciting than climbing up a pile of boxes, lumber and hay bales. In that case it was win/win - we saved our GM the problem of showing us the door! So you should be thanking us on behalf our our GM! Well, I can tell you how it was for me and the guys I was playing with. It was already pretty clear that the GM sucked and was a grade-A railroader. The adventure was tedious and predictable. We tried capturing and interrogating the kobold as a way of breaking out of the railroad and becoming more proactive in the situation (eg taking the fight to the kobolds rather than waiting to find out whatever was meant to happen next on the GM's pre-authored timeline). And the GM roadblocked us. What, up until that point, had been pretty clear, now became crystal clear. So we got out while it was still early in the university year, thereby leaving the GM the opporunity to find some new players before all the groups firmed up for the remainder of the year. The principle that "I get to decide what my NPCs know, how smart they are, what they feel like sharing when you capture them, and so on. If I decide they won't tell you something, then they won't tell you something" is in my view a poor principle. What is the point of the players even turning up, if their action declarations have no chance of affecting things? In the context of AD&D, for instance, there is a CHA stat - but the GM didn't make a reaction roll. There is a morale stat - but the GM didn't make a morale check. There is the monster's INT stat - which the GM ignored. I don't think I've ever met a player who would put up with this in the context of combat resolution - having the GM fiat the effects (or non-effects) of declared attacks without regard to the rules for attack bonus, AC, hit points etc. We weren't interested in putting up with it in the non-combat context either. And it betokens a bigger issue, too. The GM has shown that he has no interest in framing situations that his players are interested in. We clearly wanted to get some intel to run a raid on the kobolds. That's a competely viable scenario for first level PCs to engage in (look at KotB, for instance) and was a competely smooth fit with the story so far. The GM blocked it because he wanted to exercise sole control over the content of the fiction. I'm glad we booted him. Instead of a bad D&D experience that probably would have fizzled out over the next few weeks or months, I started a group in which I made friends who I'm still close to over 20 years later. And, in this group, I had some experiences with fantasy RPGing that, in respect of dramatic impact and emotional power, I would never have imagined were possible back when I was reading Gygax's rulebooks and playing Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks. And it's got nothing to do with "Screw this, I'm going to find a GM who gives me what I want!" - unless by "gives me what I want" you mean "runs a game that's remotely interesting and enjoyable". I was the GM that took over, and have been GMing continually for the whole time since. And anyone can read my actual play posts on these boards and see that the PCs in my game don't always get what they want. But the players get a game where their choices and desires make a meaningful difference to the content of the shared fiction. Which, for me, is the key. That's why my default instinct is to say yes to the beard, and to see where the players want to take it, rather than say no and make them dance to my pre-written tune. [/QUOTE]
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