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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6421394" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>In classic D&D I can force another player's PC to do something by using a charm spell, suggestion spell, etc.</p><p></p><p>In AD&D Oriental Adventures, if I am playing a mid-level samurai or kensai, I can force another player's 1st level PC to flee in fear or surrender.</p><p></p><p>Also, in any version of D&D, I can declare an attack aainst another player's PC. Because, in D&D, there is generally no distinct "active defence" mechanic - rather, parrying/dodging etc is all wrapped up in the AC stat plus the d20 attack roll - it arguably follows that I am forcing the other player's PC to dodge, parry etc.</p><p></p><p>I don't think it follows from any of the above that D&D is a "storygame" rather than an RPG.</p><p></p><p>And here's a list of games which are utterly based around players' "ownership" of a character: Marvel Heroic RP, Burning Wheel, HeroWars/Quest, 4e D&D, OGL Conan. But all have mechanics that, according to this thread, make them "storygames" rather than RPGs: in Marvel Heroic RP a player can make a roll to generate a <em>resource</em>, which can include a helpful NPC; BW has a Circles mechanic, described upthread; HW/Q allows relationships to form part of a character's stats; OGL Conan has minor-detail-adding fate points.</p><p></p><p>Even 3E D&D has a Gather Information mechanic, which is not radically different from MHRP resources or BW Circles.</p><p></p><p>Not to mention, in classic D&D play many groups took it for granted that, except in unusual circmstances, players would control their PCs' henchmen. Relationship and Circles mechanics are just an extension of this long-standing practice.</p><p></p><p>I have seen systems where you have to dice for family members, birth rank etc - AD&D Oriental Adventures is one, and I think C&S might be another. Gygax's Dangerous Journeys made you dice to see if you are the seventh son of a seventh son.</p><p></p><p>But likewise, many systems leave it open for the player and/or GM to decide. The notion that this marks some radical cleavage between roleplaying and something else isn't one that I agree with.</p><p></p><p>Which is what has been discussed in this thread.</p><p></p><p>What has also been discussed is that the GM may have made a private note, and wish to change it. Altering drafts is a fairy common element in authorship. In the context of a non-ToHish RPG, until it is made part of the shared fiction it is still a draft. (In ToH, information that is secret to the GM is nevertheless part of the game, because the whole point of play is for the players to discover that information and use it to beat the dungeon.)</p><p></p><p>I think the only person in this thread to have suggested that is [MENTION=5143]Majoru Oakheart[/MENTION]. The original suggestion (from [MENTION=6783796]Lerysh[/MENTION], I think) was that <em>if the players have expressed a preference that the answer be A rather than B</em>, and there is nothing else at stake, then the GM has a good reason to answer A rather than B.</p><p></p><p>The word "honest" here seems misplaced. It is not dishonest to author fictional elements in a way that fosters game play. It's not as if, in setting up th campaign world or scenario elements or other key elements of the fiction, the GM is unmotivated by the fact that it is a game!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6421394, member: 42582"] In classic D&D I can force another player's PC to do something by using a charm spell, suggestion spell, etc. In AD&D Oriental Adventures, if I am playing a mid-level samurai or kensai, I can force another player's 1st level PC to flee in fear or surrender. Also, in any version of D&D, I can declare an attack aainst another player's PC. Because, in D&D, there is generally no distinct "active defence" mechanic - rather, parrying/dodging etc is all wrapped up in the AC stat plus the d20 attack roll - it arguably follows that I am forcing the other player's PC to dodge, parry etc. I don't think it follows from any of the above that D&D is a "storygame" rather than an RPG. And here's a list of games which are utterly based around players' "ownership" of a character: Marvel Heroic RP, Burning Wheel, HeroWars/Quest, 4e D&D, OGL Conan. But all have mechanics that, according to this thread, make them "storygames" rather than RPGs: in Marvel Heroic RP a player can make a roll to generate a [I]resource[/I], which can include a helpful NPC; BW has a Circles mechanic, described upthread; HW/Q allows relationships to form part of a character's stats; OGL Conan has minor-detail-adding fate points. Even 3E D&D has a Gather Information mechanic, which is not radically different from MHRP resources or BW Circles. Not to mention, in classic D&D play many groups took it for granted that, except in unusual circmstances, players would control their PCs' henchmen. Relationship and Circles mechanics are just an extension of this long-standing practice. I have seen systems where you have to dice for family members, birth rank etc - AD&D Oriental Adventures is one, and I think C&S might be another. Gygax's Dangerous Journeys made you dice to see if you are the seventh son of a seventh son. But likewise, many systems leave it open for the player and/or GM to decide. The notion that this marks some radical cleavage between roleplaying and something else isn't one that I agree with. Which is what has been discussed in this thread. What has also been discussed is that the GM may have made a private note, and wish to change it. Altering drafts is a fairy common element in authorship. In the context of a non-ToHish RPG, until it is made part of the shared fiction it is still a draft. (In ToH, information that is secret to the GM is nevertheless part of the game, because the whole point of play is for the players to discover that information and use it to beat the dungeon.) I think the only person in this thread to have suggested that is [MENTION=5143]Majoru Oakheart[/MENTION]. The original suggestion (from [MENTION=6783796]Lerysh[/MENTION], I think) was that [I]if the players have expressed a preference that the answer be A rather than B[/I], and there is nothing else at stake, then the GM has a good reason to answer A rather than B. The word "honest" here seems misplaced. It is not dishonest to author fictional elements in a way that fosters game play. It's not as if, in setting up th campaign world or scenario elements or other key elements of the fiction, the GM is unmotivated by the fact that it is a game! [/QUOTE]
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