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Character play vs Player play
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<blockquote data-quote="jbear" data-source="post: 6421564" data-attributes="member: 75065"><p>I haven't read the entire thread, skipped to the last page after the first two, but I'll add my two cents. </p><p></p><p><strong><u>RE: OP and Roll vs Roleplay</u></strong></p><p>I agree that players should not expect to solve things immediately just based on a successful roll, especially game elements specifically designed to be a challenge not only to characters but also to the players themselves (Herein lies the core of the issue, correct?). It is a game and players should expect to be challenged, and be expected to put in their fair share of making a roleplaying game fun. "I rolled high, tell me the answer" is not fun.</p><p></p><p>Having said that it is equally as un-fun from a player perspective when you run into a dead end, and your attempts to get out of the dead end and move forward are met with failure because you did not happen to think of the one expected solution. Or because the clue finding process was more laborious/boring/frustrating than challenging/fun, so the group never gets to a stage where they can actually solve the puzzle because they lost interest. </p><p></p><p>I do think that a skilled DM will provide a wide range of clues/threads for PCs to follow that even when they feel stuck, they have another thread to follow up on. And if a player rolls high when they are stuck ... well, perhaps they found another clue that you can invent on the spot (or even a low roll if need be ... something awkward/amusing/embarrassing happens and a new clue is stumbled upon).</p><p></p><p>Besides, if an adventure has a bottle neck that the PCs can't figure out, you have to be accept that the PCs might simply walk away and do something else entirely. 'Poof'. All that time and energy invested in preparing the adventure ... wasted. To avoid this happening I think there should be multiple prepared pathways around any 'puzzle situation', and an open mind to new unexpected pathways that the PCs come up with. (Of course some can be better pathways than others, while some can be catalyst to new and catostrophic events! ... They just don't lead to dead ends, because dead ends are boring).</p><p></p><p>As you said, it's a 50/50 responsibility of both players and DM to make the game enjoyable and to keep it moving forward. I think it is fair to establish that roleplay is expected and will be rewarded, roll-play is not. But then as a DM you have to be flexible and not set in 'your plans' and 'your story' when players do role play in unexpected ways. (That does not mean immediately circumventing challenges just because they are roleplaying if the chosen actions are foolish, but it does mean having the game world be dynamic and responsive to player actions (failure can be fun), and not just a dead end). </p><p></p><p><strong><u>Character Ability Scores vs Player knowledge</u></strong></p><p>Character ability scores should matter. As a DM making the player with average intelligence playing a genius wizard feel smart and knowledgeable when the group face a thinking puzzle is not hard. They are the player you pass the notes to with the wee clues on. They then get a chance to knowledgeably pass on their clever observations to the rest of the group. But of course they don't just solve the problem. </p><p></p><p>On the flipside, I play dumb PCs, and often find myself in a position where I have noticed something as a player that I know my character simply would not have picked up on. </p><p></p><p>I either pass the info OOC to the 'smart character's players' or my character stumbles upon it in a way that lines up with their shear stupidity, leaving a clue so obvious to other players that they then catch on and are able to solve the issue intelligently. This can be lots of fun. </p><p></p><p>I have also played characters with really low charisma, although I myself have a way with words (Yes, if I say so myself). One in particular had a terrible stutter, so although he had good ideas, it was a real pain actually paying attention to him long enough to hear them. Every now and again I would want to get really important ideas across to the group in a clear way. He was a magic user so he used 'Ghost Sound' cantrip to speak without a stutter. Except this was portrayed as a chilling, ghastly voice (PCs eyes rolled back into the head for extra non-charismatic effect). </p><p></p><p>In short, stats should matter but should add to RP oportunities without limiting player ability when it is important IMO. </p><p><strong><u></u></strong></p><p><strong><u>Player Narrative Control</u></strong></p><p>My DMing style has changed over time (from my perspective it has matured and improved ... but of course I would think that, right?), shifting from a very fixed and defined world where PCs were given 0 narrative control/input (and were often met with ridicule when they tried to influence the narrative), to a far more open approach where I enjoy player input in world building. </p><p></p><p>I do not ALWAYS say yes. Sometimes 'the wizard simply doesn't have a beard', but neither is my game world or the adventure 100% developed and defined before hand. For example, although it was not written in my dungeon notes, if players began with a plan that involved disguising themselves as said wizard ... well, they might just find a portrait of the wizard on a bedroom wall in the near future, so they could get a good look at him and then devise a new plan involving a disguise based on what they saw.</p><p></p><p>Or for example, why can't a player invent a thieves faction on the spur of the moment that they had shady dealings with in their past, which they try and recontact in search of information to move the game forward? That expands the game world, adds colour and detail, provides connections that the player finds meaningful because they invented it, and provides opportunities for me as a DM to bring in new plot lines to mess with the player in the future that I know will hook the player in an enjoyable way. Win/Win. </p><p></p><p>Does that mean that the players can walk up to a locked door and 'invent that the key is hanging next to the door on a hook' ... no of course not. That wouldn't be fun. But when the players take the narrative in a direction that is fun, then I happily run with it. </p><p></p><p>Often the players' fears as to what is happening are much more evil and twisted than my own plans. Why be set in my ways with my crappy plan, when what the PCs fear is happening is so much more fun? Whose gonna know that I changed the plot line other than me?</p><p></p><p>Anyway, I enjoy far more having a bigger picture idea and letting the details evolve and develop organically, and very much enjoy when players help paint the picture. </p><p></p><p>Like with all things I think its about finding that balance where players feel like they have the freedom to contribute to the story, but are able to do that in ways that adds colour and improves the game without derailing the fun, and the DM engages them in a dynamic, living and breathing world where player actions matter (for good or for ill). If that is happening, then I don't think players mind when their plans fail or they are met with a no, because it never feels like a dead end but rather a new exciting challenge to overcome.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="jbear, post: 6421564, member: 75065"] I haven't read the entire thread, skipped to the last page after the first two, but I'll add my two cents. [B][U]RE: OP and Roll vs Roleplay[/U][/B] I agree that players should not expect to solve things immediately just based on a successful roll, especially game elements specifically designed to be a challenge not only to characters but also to the players themselves (Herein lies the core of the issue, correct?). It is a game and players should expect to be challenged, and be expected to put in their fair share of making a roleplaying game fun. "I rolled high, tell me the answer" is not fun. Having said that it is equally as un-fun from a player perspective when you run into a dead end, and your attempts to get out of the dead end and move forward are met with failure because you did not happen to think of the one expected solution. Or because the clue finding process was more laborious/boring/frustrating than challenging/fun, so the group never gets to a stage where they can actually solve the puzzle because they lost interest. I do think that a skilled DM will provide a wide range of clues/threads for PCs to follow that even when they feel stuck, they have another thread to follow up on. And if a player rolls high when they are stuck ... well, perhaps they found another clue that you can invent on the spot (or even a low roll if need be ... something awkward/amusing/embarrassing happens and a new clue is stumbled upon). Besides, if an adventure has a bottle neck that the PCs can't figure out, you have to be accept that the PCs might simply walk away and do something else entirely. 'Poof'. All that time and energy invested in preparing the adventure ... wasted. To avoid this happening I think there should be multiple prepared pathways around any 'puzzle situation', and an open mind to new unexpected pathways that the PCs come up with. (Of course some can be better pathways than others, while some can be catalyst to new and catostrophic events! ... They just don't lead to dead ends, because dead ends are boring). As you said, it's a 50/50 responsibility of both players and DM to make the game enjoyable and to keep it moving forward. I think it is fair to establish that roleplay is expected and will be rewarded, roll-play is not. But then as a DM you have to be flexible and not set in 'your plans' and 'your story' when players do role play in unexpected ways. (That does not mean immediately circumventing challenges just because they are roleplaying if the chosen actions are foolish, but it does mean having the game world be dynamic and responsive to player actions (failure can be fun), and not just a dead end). [B][U]Character Ability Scores vs Player knowledge[/U][/B] Character ability scores should matter. As a DM making the player with average intelligence playing a genius wizard feel smart and knowledgeable when the group face a thinking puzzle is not hard. They are the player you pass the notes to with the wee clues on. They then get a chance to knowledgeably pass on their clever observations to the rest of the group. But of course they don't just solve the problem. On the flipside, I play dumb PCs, and often find myself in a position where I have noticed something as a player that I know my character simply would not have picked up on. I either pass the info OOC to the 'smart character's players' or my character stumbles upon it in a way that lines up with their shear stupidity, leaving a clue so obvious to other players that they then catch on and are able to solve the issue intelligently. This can be lots of fun. I have also played characters with really low charisma, although I myself have a way with words (Yes, if I say so myself). One in particular had a terrible stutter, so although he had good ideas, it was a real pain actually paying attention to him long enough to hear them. Every now and again I would want to get really important ideas across to the group in a clear way. He was a magic user so he used 'Ghost Sound' cantrip to speak without a stutter. Except this was portrayed as a chilling, ghastly voice (PCs eyes rolled back into the head for extra non-charismatic effect). In short, stats should matter but should add to RP oportunities without limiting player ability when it is important IMO. [B][U] Player Narrative Control[/U][/B] My DMing style has changed over time (from my perspective it has matured and improved ... but of course I would think that, right?), shifting from a very fixed and defined world where PCs were given 0 narrative control/input (and were often met with ridicule when they tried to influence the narrative), to a far more open approach where I enjoy player input in world building. I do not ALWAYS say yes. Sometimes 'the wizard simply doesn't have a beard', but neither is my game world or the adventure 100% developed and defined before hand. For example, although it was not written in my dungeon notes, if players began with a plan that involved disguising themselves as said wizard ... well, they might just find a portrait of the wizard on a bedroom wall in the near future, so they could get a good look at him and then devise a new plan involving a disguise based on what they saw. Or for example, why can't a player invent a thieves faction on the spur of the moment that they had shady dealings with in their past, which they try and recontact in search of information to move the game forward? That expands the game world, adds colour and detail, provides connections that the player finds meaningful because they invented it, and provides opportunities for me as a DM to bring in new plot lines to mess with the player in the future that I know will hook the player in an enjoyable way. Win/Win. Does that mean that the players can walk up to a locked door and 'invent that the key is hanging next to the door on a hook' ... no of course not. That wouldn't be fun. But when the players take the narrative in a direction that is fun, then I happily run with it. Often the players' fears as to what is happening are much more evil and twisted than my own plans. Why be set in my ways with my crappy plan, when what the PCs fear is happening is so much more fun? Whose gonna know that I changed the plot line other than me? Anyway, I enjoy far more having a bigger picture idea and letting the details evolve and develop organically, and very much enjoy when players help paint the picture. Like with all things I think its about finding that balance where players feel like they have the freedom to contribute to the story, but are able to do that in ways that adds colour and improves the game without derailing the fun, and the DM engages them in a dynamic, living and breathing world where player actions matter (for good or for ill). If that is happening, then I don't think players mind when their plans fail or they are met with a no, because it never feels like a dead end but rather a new exciting challenge to overcome. [/QUOTE]
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