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<blockquote data-quote="aramis erak" data-source="post: 6421580" data-attributes="member: 6779310"><p>If you're claiming storygames axiomatically aren't RPG's, you're using the term RPG in a way I cannot fathom. There are SOME which are not... </p><p></p><p>In D&D, a charm spell never has given PC1 control over what PC2 attempts. It has given the DM authority to override PC2's choices, but not carte blanche for PC1 to dictate and narrate what PC2 does.</p><p></p><p>In B&H, however, with a sufficiently large pool, one can literally rip control over a PC away from their player, have them do things the player objects to, and even make permanent changes to the character. It requires huge amounts of trust to work.</p><p></p><p>Now, there are some few story games that aren't RPGs in the sense that there is not a connection of player to character, and in the sense that getting into character is not part of the experience. Those aren't many. </p><p></p><p>Once Upon A Time, the rules are not much more than, "Start telling a fairy tale, and each time you say a word on one of your cards, play it to the table; if someone else has a suitable interrupt, they can stop you, play their card, and take over narrating. First one out of cards wins." It's a competitive storygame without roleplaying.</p><p></p><p>Microscope, while in most of the actual plays tends to result in in-character interactions, doesn't actually require that. And the characters may or may not be used in more than one scene. It's usually got roleplaying, but doesn't actually require it.</p><p></p><p>Many of the edge cases, like Burning Wheel, Fate, and Cortex Plus, in their various derivatives, have elements of both traditional play {strong investment in, and strong control over, the character, only one player plays each character (but can be required to do certain things by others), strong GM authority over the narrative}... but also strong elements of player empowerment {Burning Wheel use of Wises to make things appear in the fiction, Fate and Cortex use of fate/plot points to declare things exist, Fate use of the compel mechanic to force a character to act in a particular accord with their definition, Fate and BW player input into the campaign establishment stages, CortexPlus Firefly collaborative building of the ship, BW allowing resolving entire conflicts with a single roll...}. </p><p></p><p>And it's not like WFRP 1E fate points allowed the character to dictate what happens... they just are a guarantee the character will somehow survive the encounter and remain playable. They are a hedge against bad rolls.</p><p></p><p>Ars Magica 2E/3E is far more a storygame than a Trad game... players own multiple characters, and multiple players play many of the unowned characters, players collaboratively generate the setting and major plot ideas, there is no specific single GM... but at the same time, for whomever is GMing at the moment, it's very Trad in play - players aren't empowered once things begin on an adventure, but also tend to realize that, when it's their turn as a player, the guy making the suggestion may get even...</p><p></p><p>Trad is strong GM, players control their characters attempts at actions, and no sharing characters as a matter of rules. It also tends to imply dice-based action resolution, and resolving actions, not scenes. once you get to systematic violations of those as regular parts of play, you're really out of the Traditional RPG playspace and into something closer to a Ron Edwards style storygame.</p><p></p><p>Storygames, as a generality, focus on Vincent's Admonition (Say Yes or Roll the Dice), player narration being as valid as GM narration, and story control being what's covered in the mechanics more than action resolutions.</p><p></p><p>But most important of all: the different styles of games support different styles of play, and that's a good thing. I don't want New Player X dictating to me as a D&D DM where and when their character shows up, nor that Orc #3 is carrying a seax rather than a scimitar. If I were in the mood for that, I'd be running B&H....</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="aramis erak, post: 6421580, member: 6779310"] If you're claiming storygames axiomatically aren't RPG's, you're using the term RPG in a way I cannot fathom. There are SOME which are not... In D&D, a charm spell never has given PC1 control over what PC2 attempts. It has given the DM authority to override PC2's choices, but not carte blanche for PC1 to dictate and narrate what PC2 does. In B&H, however, with a sufficiently large pool, one can literally rip control over a PC away from their player, have them do things the player objects to, and even make permanent changes to the character. It requires huge amounts of trust to work. Now, there are some few story games that aren't RPGs in the sense that there is not a connection of player to character, and in the sense that getting into character is not part of the experience. Those aren't many. Once Upon A Time, the rules are not much more than, "Start telling a fairy tale, and each time you say a word on one of your cards, play it to the table; if someone else has a suitable interrupt, they can stop you, play their card, and take over narrating. First one out of cards wins." It's a competitive storygame without roleplaying. Microscope, while in most of the actual plays tends to result in in-character interactions, doesn't actually require that. And the characters may or may not be used in more than one scene. It's usually got roleplaying, but doesn't actually require it. Many of the edge cases, like Burning Wheel, Fate, and Cortex Plus, in their various derivatives, have elements of both traditional play {strong investment in, and strong control over, the character, only one player plays each character (but can be required to do certain things by others), strong GM authority over the narrative}... but also strong elements of player empowerment {Burning Wheel use of Wises to make things appear in the fiction, Fate and Cortex use of fate/plot points to declare things exist, Fate use of the compel mechanic to force a character to act in a particular accord with their definition, Fate and BW player input into the campaign establishment stages, CortexPlus Firefly collaborative building of the ship, BW allowing resolving entire conflicts with a single roll...}. And it's not like WFRP 1E fate points allowed the character to dictate what happens... they just are a guarantee the character will somehow survive the encounter and remain playable. They are a hedge against bad rolls. Ars Magica 2E/3E is far more a storygame than a Trad game... players own multiple characters, and multiple players play many of the unowned characters, players collaboratively generate the setting and major plot ideas, there is no specific single GM... but at the same time, for whomever is GMing at the moment, it's very Trad in play - players aren't empowered once things begin on an adventure, but also tend to realize that, when it's their turn as a player, the guy making the suggestion may get even... Trad is strong GM, players control their characters attempts at actions, and no sharing characters as a matter of rules. It also tends to imply dice-based action resolution, and resolving actions, not scenes. once you get to systematic violations of those as regular parts of play, you're really out of the Traditional RPG playspace and into something closer to a Ron Edwards style storygame. Storygames, as a generality, focus on Vincent's Admonition (Say Yes or Roll the Dice), player narration being as valid as GM narration, and story control being what's covered in the mechanics more than action resolutions. But most important of all: the different styles of games support different styles of play, and that's a good thing. I don't want New Player X dictating to me as a D&D DM where and when their character shows up, nor that Orc #3 is carrying a seax rather than a scimitar. If I were in the mood for that, I'd be running B&H.... [/QUOTE]
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