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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6422918" data-attributes="member: 87792">Well, it's good to see some things remain unchanged.  Like people trying to define E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson's games as Storygames.Taking one anecdote that springs to mind, Mike Mornard played a baby Balrog in both Gygax's and Arneson's campaigns.  He then on one occasion, trying to break into a keep, stuck an asbestos hat on his head, and claimed to be a reporter for The Balrog Times to interview the evil overlord.  And used his thumb as the flash.  Did the Balrog Times exist before Mornard pulled that stunt?  Nope.  Were there reporters with flash photography in (I'm not sure whether it was Greyhawk or Blackmoor he pulled that stunt in - Mornard was the only person in both)?  Nope.  Was it entertaining and entirely within the spirit of the game which was, according to Mornard "We made up some <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> we thought would be fun"?  Yes.For that matter we can go back further.  Arneson and <a href="http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/104/braunstein-the-roots-of-roleplaying-games/" target="_blank">Braunstein</a>.  Arneson invented D&D on the back of players inventing things within the setting that weren't forseen by the GM.Now.  I'm happy to let you guys have the term "traditional RPG" as long as you're happy to let our side of the fence have Gygax, Arneson, and just about all of oD&D.  Is this a deal?Given that the key storytelling element is Cause and Effect then yes we have.  If you want to remove all storytelling elements from your roleplaying you're left with ... not a hell of a lot.  I'm not sure how you are roleplaying without cause and effect.Indeed.  Tabletop Roleplaying grew out of two roots.  The first was tabletop wargaming.  The second was a freeform LARP that tabletop wargamers were experimenting with and that was almost entirely made up of what you would call storytelling elements.  Tabletop Roleplaying is about as pure as the English Language.  And I wouldn't have it any other way.The idea I find weird is that people are seeking to exclude that which has always been in tabletop roleplaying and to define it as other than one of the fundamentals tabletop roleplaying has been based on.Indeed.  If the PCs are entirely reliant on the DM's descriptions that puts them effectively on the position of relying on a single human interpreter to explain the world to a pack of half a dozen people.  Without context most actions are meaningless.  And I find such entitled DMing that doesn't trust the players to establish anything about the world is anti-immersive for anything more complex than solving a puzzle dungeon and leads to disengagement from players and overwork and far less fun for the DM.  (I speak as someone who DMs at least as much as I play).Of course.I can't imagine why you would.I'm trying to think who's advocating that in ... any game.  You might get away with it in Fiasco - but it's illegal in Fate.  In Fate you need there to be a pre-existing aspect (e.g. Hidden Fire Escapes Everywhere) before you can spend a Fate point to establish a detail like that.And as I pointed out on ... another thread, the term Storygame was invented for games with a story structure.  Normally based round <a href="http://www.crazytownblog.com/crazytown/2010/02/getting-your-acts-together.html" target="_blank">the five act structure</a> that's hardcoded in the rules.  So the climax of My Life With Master is one of the poor minions deciding to challenge the master - and the rolling fight is act 4.  In Fiasco the mapping to a five act structure is obvious.  And very much hardcoded.People objecting to Gygax and Arneson's D&D, Fate, Unisystem, or GURPS (none of which are Storygames but all at times allow narrative declaration by players) are inventing a completely different axis.</blockquote>

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