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Character play vs Player play
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6423626" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Yes. Its says the GM sets the DC, and gives examples. It doesn't say that the GM <em>first</em> gets to decide if cheap guns are available at a good price, and if s/he decides that they're not then the check automatically fails.</p><p></p><p>The point of the skill is to give the players a (potentially risky, because illicit) pathway to getting the things they need to succeed at the sorts of adventures that Traveller (at least in its classic incarnation) encourages.</p><p></p><p>I see it's usage as the player affecting the setting directly because the player, through a successful roll, can make it true that high quality guns are available at a low price. This is not something that the <em>character</em> is making true.</p><p></p><p>Huh? The player triggers it. That's [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s point.</p><p></p><p>If the game has "Bond points" or OGL Conan-style "fate points" then all the player does is trigger them. "The game" puts them there, via the rules for awarding them.</p><p></p><p>I think this is nicely put.</p><p></p><p>The idea that the GM has sole authority over the introduction of story elements, once the players have built their PCs in accordance with the rules, is not stated in any AD&D book I know, nor in Moldvay Basic, nor in Traveller.</p><p></p><p>The AD&D PHBs (Gygax's and Cook's) talk about the players playing their characters, and using their character's abilities, but they do not say that the players may not suggest story elements to go along with it, and Gygax's PHB expressly contemplates player authorship of PC backstory. Nor do these books tell the GM not to have regard to player desires in answering questions about the content of the shared fiction.</p><p></p><p>Upthread I had some discussion with [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] about the difference between the door open/shut case, in which the issue of fictional content is intimately bound up with action resolution, and the bearded NPC case, which is not bound up with action resolution.</p><p></p><p>Your examples are both about action resolution, namely, escaping.</p><p></p><p>They also involve introducing very improbable story elements, unlike either a bearded man (assuming that the setting does not have strong conventions around being clean-shaven) or boxes or similar rubbish in an alley.</p><p></p><p>I can't imagine a player suggesting either of the things you suggest, so don't have a view on how I would respond as a GM. If either thing came up, there would be bigger matters to handle as a GM than this particular episode of action resolution. For instance, there is a strong implication that neither player really wants to play a fantasy RPG along the lines I'm running.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6423626, member: 42582"] Yes. Its says the GM sets the DC, and gives examples. It doesn't say that the GM [I]first[/I] gets to decide if cheap guns are available at a good price, and if s/he decides that they're not then the check automatically fails. The point of the skill is to give the players a (potentially risky, because illicit) pathway to getting the things they need to succeed at the sorts of adventures that Traveller (at least in its classic incarnation) encourages. I see it's usage as the player affecting the setting directly because the player, through a successful roll, can make it true that high quality guns are available at a low price. This is not something that the [i]character[/i] is making true. Huh? The player triggers it. That's [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s point. If the game has "Bond points" or OGL Conan-style "fate points" then all the player does is trigger them. "The game" puts them there, via the rules for awarding them. I think this is nicely put. The idea that the GM has sole authority over the introduction of story elements, once the players have built their PCs in accordance with the rules, is not stated in any AD&D book I know, nor in Moldvay Basic, nor in Traveller. The AD&D PHBs (Gygax's and Cook's) talk about the players playing their characters, and using their character's abilities, but they do not say that the players may not suggest story elements to go along with it, and Gygax's PHB expressly contemplates player authorship of PC backstory. Nor do these books tell the GM not to have regard to player desires in answering questions about the content of the shared fiction. Upthread I had some discussion with [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] about the difference between the door open/shut case, in which the issue of fictional content is intimately bound up with action resolution, and the bearded NPC case, which is not bound up with action resolution. Your examples are both about action resolution, namely, escaping. They also involve introducing very improbable story elements, unlike either a bearded man (assuming that the setting does not have strong conventions around being clean-shaven) or boxes or similar rubbish in an alley. I can't imagine a player suggesting either of the things you suggest, so don't have a view on how I would respond as a GM. If either thing came up, there would be bigger matters to handle as a GM than this particular episode of action resolution. For instance, there is a strong implication that neither player really wants to play a fantasy RPG along the lines I'm running. [/QUOTE]
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