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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6427417" data-attributes="member: 87792">In short the Fate approach.&nbsp; Where there is a loose mapping rather than the tight mapping of e.g. D&amp;D or GURPS and you use Fate Points to fudge the gaps.But what you are arguing is that players can't assume things about the setting that their characters would know and be able to exploit - which is the other half of what you use Fate Points for.First, this might be problematic.&nbsp; It is also at the root of D&amp;D.&nbsp; Pawn Play where you are playing with your skill rather than the skill of your character.&nbsp; What I am objecting to is the appropriation of the earliest forms of D&amp;D rather than you accepting that RPGs were something that drifted towards versions you like more.&nbsp; We have both oD&amp;D and Classic Traveller.&nbsp; Ironically enough you have Vampire: the Masquerade in line with what you like.Second, if you are in character, player establishment of things only enhances this.&nbsp; You declare to be true what you believe would be true in character. Example 1 &quot;I swagger into the Blood Eagle, a low down dive bar by the docks, and ignore the door slamming behind me.&nbsp; Cutting through the crowd, I see the weasely guy in the corner, his face shrouded in shadow.&nbsp; Glancing at him I see he's wearing a tattoo of the Nighthawks.&quot;&nbsp; *Tosses Fate point into the pile*&nbsp; &quot;I sit down in front of him and say ...&quot;&nbsp; You don't break character for a second.&nbsp; And you get right to the chaseExample 2: &quot;I go to the docks and start looking for bars.&nbsp; What are they called?&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Right.&nbsp; Now.&nbsp; Do I know which of them are frequented by the Night Hawks?&nbsp; *rolls*&nbsp; That's an 18 on Streetwise.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;I walk into the Blood Eagle.&nbsp; What's it like inside?&quot;&nbsp; &quot;I look round.&nbsp; Can I see anyone who looks like they are from the Night Hawks?&quot;&nbsp; &quot;I sit down in front of him and say...&quot;Which do you think would be more immersive for the player?&nbsp; Because to me it's the one where the player set the scene, established the bar, and then declared the Nighthawk to be there.&nbsp; Not even close.I've never had a problem with this in Fate.&nbsp; What in my experience causes people to drop out of character is having to consult their character sheets.&nbsp; And that's when people start trying to be clever - <a href="http://theblueroomblog.org/the-improv-life-stop-trying-to-be-clever/" target="_blank">something a lot of improv coaches try to train you out of</a>.&nbsp; (This applies as much to GMs as it does to players).As mentioned, a cardinal sin of keeping characters in-character.Not the one I was talking about.&nbsp; I'm talking about the voiceover for blind viewers.&nbsp; Not the useless self-congratulatory track that I ignore.The tools of the Storyteller's trade...Thus weakening the story in many ways.&nbsp; Yes, they are good enough writers that they got away with it.&nbsp; But that's not the same as it being a good idea.&nbsp; And especially not when you are meant to be inhabiting the world.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6427417, member: 87792"] In short the Fate approach. Where there is a loose mapping rather than the tight mapping of e.g. D&D or GURPS and you use Fate Points to fudge the gaps. But what you are arguing is that players can't assume things about the setting that their characters would know and be able to exploit - which is the other half of what you use Fate Points for. First, this might be problematic. It is also at the root of D&D. Pawn Play where you are playing with your skill rather than the skill of your character. What I am objecting to is the appropriation of the earliest forms of D&D rather than you accepting that RPGs were something that drifted towards versions you like more. We have both oD&D and Classic Traveller. Ironically enough you have Vampire: the Masquerade in line with what you like. Second, if you are in character, player establishment of things only enhances this. You declare to be true what you believe would be true in character. Example 1 "I swagger into the Blood Eagle, a low down dive bar by the docks, and ignore the door slamming behind me. Cutting through the crowd, I see the weasely guy in the corner, his face shrouded in shadow. Glancing at him I see he's wearing a tattoo of the Nighthawks." *Tosses Fate point into the pile* "I sit down in front of him and say ..." You don't break character for a second. And you get right to the chase Example 2: "I go to the docks and start looking for bars. What are they called?" "Right. Now. Do I know which of them are frequented by the Night Hawks? *rolls* That's an 18 on Streetwise." "I walk into the Blood Eagle. What's it like inside?" "I look round. Can I see anyone who looks like they are from the Night Hawks?" "I sit down in front of him and say..." Which do you think would be more immersive for the player? Because to me it's the one where the player set the scene, established the bar, and then declared the Nighthawk to be there. Not even close. I've never had a problem with this in Fate. What in my experience causes people to drop out of character is having to consult their character sheets. And that's when people start trying to be clever - [URL="http://theblueroomblog.org/the-improv-life-stop-trying-to-be-clever/"]something a lot of improv coaches try to train you out of[/URL]. (This applies as much to GMs as it does to players). As mentioned, a cardinal sin of keeping characters in-character. Not the one I was talking about. I'm talking about the voiceover for blind viewers. Not the useless self-congratulatory track that I ignore. The tools of the Storyteller's trade... Thus weakening the story in many ways. Yes, they are good enough writers that they got away with it. But that's not the same as it being a good idea. And especially not when you are meant to be inhabiting the world. [/QUOTE]

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