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Character play vs Player play
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6432718" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>And you're misrepresenting The Forge and the larger fields of roleplaying, improvisational theatre, and collaborative storytelling of which tabletop RPGs with dice are only a tiny fraction. I've experience in quite a few of those subsets.</p><p></p><p>And one thing I've learned is that there is only one circumstance where internal logic and causality is not a primary concern that people try to hold to as a matter of course. That is the situation where there is too much to remember. Either because the thing's been going on for too long (hour long group improv can easily get this way) or because the rules are too much to remember (see HERO for details) and people refer to the rules rather than referring to the fiction established by the group.</p><p></p><p>As for the idea that in-story structure doesn't matter actually being an idea that came out of the Forge? The obviously Forge-influenced games like My Life With Master trivially disprove that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Congratulations. You are playing D&D or some other simulationist game. And what you are finding is a mismatch between what the rules say (that it's mechanically better to face down the Half-Dragon and you're far more than a match for it) and the story considerations (making you want to run). <em>This is evidence of bad rules design.</em> That the experience that you are trying to get from the story does not match the incentives the rules give you.</p><p></p><p>And it is this sort of bad design that the narrative games of the Forge are trying to fix.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It sounds to me as if you want to play a Storygame - or at least a post-Forge narrative game. One where the story considerations line up with the rules. And where the rules of the game do not tell you that smart play is at odds with accepting the narrative as laid out so far.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed. <em>This is part of the point of Forge style narrativism.</em> The rules and the ongoing narrative should line up and that when they are at odds people are going to have problems with both the story and with the rules (different people with different parts of this). This is where Edwards' objection to incoherence IMO comes from. That when the incentives provided by the rules (smart play) don't line up with what people are trying to do (tell a story) things are going to fracture along some line or other.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6432718, member: 87792"] And you're misrepresenting The Forge and the larger fields of roleplaying, improvisational theatre, and collaborative storytelling of which tabletop RPGs with dice are only a tiny fraction. I've experience in quite a few of those subsets. And one thing I've learned is that there is only one circumstance where internal logic and causality is not a primary concern that people try to hold to as a matter of course. That is the situation where there is too much to remember. Either because the thing's been going on for too long (hour long group improv can easily get this way) or because the rules are too much to remember (see HERO for details) and people refer to the rules rather than referring to the fiction established by the group. As for the idea that in-story structure doesn't matter actually being an idea that came out of the Forge? The obviously Forge-influenced games like My Life With Master trivially disprove that. Congratulations. You are playing D&D or some other simulationist game. And what you are finding is a mismatch between what the rules say (that it's mechanically better to face down the Half-Dragon and you're far more than a match for it) and the story considerations (making you want to run). [I]This is evidence of bad rules design.[/I] That the experience that you are trying to get from the story does not match the incentives the rules give you. And it is this sort of bad design that the narrative games of the Forge are trying to fix. It sounds to me as if you want to play a Storygame - or at least a post-Forge narrative game. One where the story considerations line up with the rules. And where the rules of the game do not tell you that smart play is at odds with accepting the narrative as laid out so far. Indeed. [I]This is part of the point of Forge style narrativism.[/I] The rules and the ongoing narrative should line up and that when they are at odds people are going to have problems with both the story and with the rules (different people with different parts of this). This is where Edwards' objection to incoherence IMO comes from. That when the incentives provided by the rules (smart play) don't line up with what people are trying to do (tell a story) things are going to fracture along some line or other. [/QUOTE]
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