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Character play vs Player play
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<blockquote data-quote="Mark CMG" data-source="post: 6440609" data-attributes="member: 10479"><p>These are two different things (metagaming / player authorial control) and the conflating of them has caused a lot of the confusion in this thread. As I have said before, the OP of this thread is about "Character play vs Player play" (players metagaming) while the side discussion is about (trad) RPGs turned RPGs with storytelling elements turned full-fledged storytelling games. No one (I don't think) is saying RPGs didn't have opportunities to metagame. What is being said, rather, is that opportunities by the rules for player authorial control (a very different thing from metagaming and not to be conflated with it) were added down the line and led to the genesis of storytelling games.</p><p></p><p>The post from which I am quoting is a textbook example of those two things (metagaming / player authorial control) being linked in a way that some others have taken as conflating them and it has driven the bulk of discussion in this thread for two weeks while I have repeatedly tried to explain they are two different things. Hussar has at this point pretty much said that almost anything the player does using his character affects the story ergo is a storytelling element thus storytelling elements were always in RPGs. Hopefully he will read your separation of those terms.</p><p></p><p>And, to be clear, a character can have resources of which the character is unaware (HP) and it not lead to player authorial control over the setting, though it might lead to metagaming of the character, but when the player has a resource which is actually above and beyond the character that allows for direct player authorial control over the setting (like "*" points) then one is venturing into the area of storytelling elements.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mark CMG, post: 6440609, member: 10479"] These are two different things (metagaming / player authorial control) and the conflating of them has caused a lot of the confusion in this thread. As I have said before, the OP of this thread is about "Character play vs Player play" (players metagaming) while the side discussion is about (trad) RPGs turned RPGs with storytelling elements turned full-fledged storytelling games. No one (I don't think) is saying RPGs didn't have opportunities to metagame. What is being said, rather, is that opportunities by the rules for player authorial control (a very different thing from metagaming and not to be conflated with it) were added down the line and led to the genesis of storytelling games. The post from which I am quoting is a textbook example of those two things (metagaming / player authorial control) being linked in a way that some others have taken as conflating them and it has driven the bulk of discussion in this thread for two weeks while I have repeatedly tried to explain they are two different things. Hussar has at this point pretty much said that almost anything the player does using his character affects the story ergo is a storytelling element thus storytelling elements were always in RPGs. Hopefully he will read your separation of those terms. And, to be clear, a character can have resources of which the character is unaware (HP) and it not lead to player authorial control over the setting, though it might lead to metagaming of the character, but when the player has a resource which is actually above and beyond the character that allows for direct player authorial control over the setting (like "*" points) then one is venturing into the area of storytelling elements. [/QUOTE]
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