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<blockquote data-quote="Sacrosanct" data-source="post: 6934871" data-attributes="member: 15700">Um, the part you quote tells you right there that combat happens after every other option fails.&nbsp; Your own quoted material contradicts your statement lol.&nbsp; I'm not saying combat should never happen in AD&amp;D.&nbsp; What I am saying, is that from 1974 to 2000 (before 3e came out and boosted all the PCs), the game was more about avoiding combat when possible.&nbsp; For several reasons1.&nbsp; RAW, if you used combat as your first choice and ran the game like you would in say 4e, your PCs would die all the time.&nbsp; A single hit from a kobold or orc has the potential of outright killing a 2nd or 3rd level PC.&nbsp; That's literally impossible in WotC editions.&nbsp; Monsters has several save or die features like poison, and good luck if you ever run across a life draining undead2. You didn't get hardly any XP for defeating monsters.&nbsp; You got most of it from treasure.&nbsp; And you also still got monster XP for defeating them no matter what way you did it, even if you totally avoid them.3. The vast majority of PCs only went to name level before retiring.&nbsp; A 9th level thief will only have an average of 32 hp.&nbsp; So even at higher levels, the risk of death remains and doesn't drop as much as you're presenting.&nbsp; An owl bear will rip that PC to shreds in one on one combat4. A dragon's breath weapon can wipe out an entire party in one go.&nbsp; Game over.&nbsp; An 11 HD red will do 88 hp of damage, and only something like a level 14 fighter with a decent Con bonus can absorb that5. 2e didn't change this much, mechanically.&nbsp; In 2e you didn't get xp for treasure so much, but you got a lot more for roleplaying, and the game was still just as deadlySo no, AD&amp;D hasn't always been a combat first game.&nbsp; Anyone who's played AD&amp;D anywhere near RAW knows AD&amp;D was &quot;combat as a last option&quot; game.&nbsp; Every group I've played with from 1981 to 2012 (when AD&amp;D was our game of choice) would agree.&nbsp; The rules of AD&amp;D clearly show that PCs won't survive long if they view combat as the go to option.&nbsp; Only when 3e came out and PCs got boosted in power exponentially, and then 4e made it all about combat.&nbsp; To make an argument to the contrary ignores 2/3 of D&amp;D's entire history as a game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sacrosanct, post: 6934871, member: 15700"] Um, the part you quote tells you right there that combat happens [i]after[/i] every other option fails. Your own quoted material contradicts your statement lol. I'm not saying combat should never happen in AD&D. What I am saying, is that from 1974 to 2000 (before 3e came out and boosted all the PCs), the game was more about avoiding combat when possible. For several reasons 1. RAW, if you used combat as your first choice and ran the game like you would in say 4e, your PCs would die all the time. A single hit from a kobold or orc has the potential of outright killing a 2nd or 3rd level PC. That's literally impossible in WotC editions. Monsters has several save or die features like poison, and good luck if you ever run across a life draining undead 2. You didn't get hardly any XP for defeating monsters. You got most of it from treasure. And you also still got monster XP for defeating them no matter what way you did it, even if you totally avoid them. 3. The vast majority of PCs only went to name level before retiring. A 9th level thief will only have an average of 32 hp. So even at higher levels, the risk of death remains and doesn't drop as much as you're presenting. An owl bear will rip that PC to shreds in one on one combat 4. A dragon's breath weapon can wipe out an entire party in one go. Game over. An 11 HD red will do 88 hp of damage, and only something like a level 14 fighter with a decent Con bonus can absorb that 5. 2e didn't change this much, mechanically. In 2e you didn't get xp for treasure so much, but you got a lot more for roleplaying, and the game was still just as deadly So no, AD&D hasn't always been a combat first game. Anyone who's played AD&D anywhere near RAW knows AD&D was "combat as a last option" game. Every group I've played with from 1981 to 2012 (when AD&D was our game of choice) would agree. The rules of AD&D clearly show that PCs won't survive long if they view combat as the go to option. Only when 3e came out and PCs got boosted in power exponentially, and then 4e made it all about combat. To make an argument to the contrary ignores 2/3 of D&D's entire history as a game. [/QUOTE]

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