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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6940578" data-attributes="member: 996">It was excellent advice at the time, since D&D had yet to espouse a wildly inclusive kumbaya vision for itself.  Since WotC opened the book on 5e with that vision from the moment it was announced, indeed, the idea of being more inclusive of multiple editions' playstyles was a justification for rolling rev again so soon.Because they're not the current edition and......you just like to adopt the latest & greatest......you want to actively support the success of D&D, and promoting an out-of-print edition is at cross purposes to that (cf edition war)......you want D&D to be as good as possible, and that means supporting the style you feel is 'best...'...you primarily participate in organized play and that's 5e AL, now......being told to go play a non-current edition or non-D&D game, when you're a devoted fan of D&D makes you feel excluded...Not just inches, there were rules for using grids or hex maps, minis, the whole 9 yards, even in AD&D.  The original game labeled itself a wargame and called out the use of minis right on the cover.I feel like there was a real split between the new 'kids' who entered the hobby with D&D in the 80s, and the older set who started with wargaming, like you, I have no stats to back it up, but it felt like a sort of 'generation gap.'  Whether minis got used or not, in my extensive experience back then depended on the DM.  If the DM was a long-time wargamer and had a bunch of minis, minis definitely got used when he ran D&D.  If he was a new player who hadn't wargamed or built up  a collection of minis, he probably didn't.  Though, even without minis, it could be helpful to use /something/ for positions.  My oldest groups would lay down pencils for dungeon walls and dice for characters & monsters, for instance.  But we hardly knew what we were doing back then. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />That wasn't a shift, it was a return.  And, it /really/ started with 2e C&T.  So you're looking at a brief period between 1e with it's lingering wargaminess and 2e C&T when you might make a case for D&D leaning more towards TotM.  Sure, when 3e came out, there were grognards reacting against it being 'grid based,' and, in the edition war, the same complaint was lodged against 4e, even by 3.5 fans, but it was always a spurious complaint.Yes, you do.Actually we saw you do exactly that.  You were an active h4ter throughout the edition war, for instance.  But you're playing 5e now, because it supports the 1e/2e styles you likes, as it's supposed to support /all/ styles.  And made a much, much bigger stink about it, with a lot less provocation.  But there was another difference:   Every prior edition tried to make the game better in some way, so if you were 'left behind,' well, it was at least in the cause of advancing the game, however bad or good an idea that turned out to be.  5e is the first edition that has as a major goal evoking past editions and being 'for' fans of all those past editions.If you felt left out or passed over by 2e or 3.5 or 4e or even 1e AD&D (and some folks did, and gravitated to Arduin Griomoire, for instance), well, that was too bad, the game was moving "forward."  If you loved 2e or 3e or 4e or 0e or any other 'e' of D&D, though, 5e is supposed to have something for you.  It very clearly has fans of 2e covered, and distinctively 3e stuff appears as options.  Fans of the more spartan early/basic game can strip 5e down to the basic pdf.  But there's still bits of 1e (psionics, 1st-level MCing), 3e (Sorcerer & Fighter builds, PrCs, rewards for system mastery) and 4e (martial options, skill challenges, class & encounter balance) that are absent or under-supported, and other bits that are missing for now, but at least seem to be 'in the pipeline.'  And, really, that's being charitable.  While a DM who wants to can bang 5e into a more classic or more modern shape with varying degrees of effort, the 'player empowerment' of 3e & 4e is not really on the table the way it was in the eras of RAW and Balance, respectively.  If it had to be judged right now on it's ability to deliver on the promise of inclusiveness, it has failed.Fortunately, there's no reason to think it should be judged on the state it's in after only 2 supplements with even a bit of player-facing crunch.</blockquote>

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