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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7837795" data-attributes="member: 996">Really, the fad got rolling in, like '83, there were a lotta people who never played with the 0e, no-healing-at-1st cleric (or only very briefly with the Basic, before going AD&amp;D), by '89.&nbsp; AD&amp;D, the 1st level cleric likely had 3 Cure Lights from wisdom bonus.&nbsp; At least, the second cleric you played did.&nbsp;There were various coping styles. New characters all the time was certainly one, maybe more the &quot;Real Man&quot; than the &quot;muchkin&quot; (remember those?), breaking off and &quot;resting&quot; was another, DM fudging, Monty Haul......there were so many 'wrong' ways to run D&amp;D, I'm not even sure there was a right way.Well, it was /extremely hard/.&nbsp; To survive. Yep, 1e did that, too.&nbsp;By the time I started seeing more folks my own age playing, there were a LOT of getting-through-1st-level variants.&nbsp; Max HD at 1st, 2nd level 'brevets,' all manner of increasingly out there stat generation methods (starting with the ones in the DMG), starting with healing potions, etc, etc...&nbsp;So, restricts stacking abuse to parties with multiple casters...&nbsp; ok.&nbsp; I just find it really pallid next to even /casting/ a spell back in the day.&nbsp; If your concentration was broken while casting, you lost the spell, no effect, and memory of it was gone.&nbsp; And that wasn't a save or a skill check (the luxury!), it was if you took even 1 hp of damage from anything.&nbsp; If you were grabbed or jostled.&nbsp; If you were on a ship's deck at sea in less than perfectly calm conditions.&nbsp; If you were walking faster than a stately pace.&nbsp; Depending on the DM's interpretations and the initiative rolls you could - or were virtually guaranteed - to be interrupted by attacks, too, especially in melee.&nbsp; Casters were profoundly allergic to melee.&quot;Concentration&quot; on just durations?&nbsp; Not even all durations?&nbsp; No chance of being interrupted?&nbsp; Even in melee?&nbsp; Virtually no restrictions on casting?It's not an adventure, it's a vacation.24+ encounters/day?&nbsp; That's pretty active.Also plenty of reasonably safe places to rest.The point is, the long rest is available.I can see plenty of cases where you might take /either/ a long or short rest (so why not a long one).&nbsp; Easily a short rest, but not a long is the one I find less than plausible.&nbsp; Time pressure to contain the challenge to a single day is usually about it.Oh, sure.&nbsp; Damage - overall DPR in the course of the prescribed 5e day - is just where classes tend to balance out.&nbsp; It's not nearly the Bard or Wizard's best thing, but, in a basic - single-target, not too situational - way, they can probably both output comparable damage when that's all that's needed, one way or another.&nbsp;Yep, it's the spontaneous/known rather than neo-Vancian casting, at bottom.&nbsp; They're an impressive and even cool (come up quite a bit in the world from Elan) class, but still Tier 2.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7837795, member: 996"] Really, the fad got rolling in, like '83, there were a lotta people who never played with the 0e, no-healing-at-1st cleric (or only very briefly with the Basic, before going AD&D), by '89. AD&D, the 1st level cleric likely had 3 Cure Lights from wisdom bonus. At least, the second cleric you played did. There were various coping styles. New characters all the time was certainly one, maybe more the "Real Man" than the "muchkin" (remember those?), breaking off and "resting" was another, DM fudging, Monty Haul... ...there were so many 'wrong' ways to run D&D, I'm not even sure there was a right way. Well, it was /extremely hard/. To survive. Yep, 1e did that, too. By the time I started seeing more folks my own age playing, there were a LOT of getting-through-1st-level variants. Max HD at 1st, 2nd level 'brevets,' all manner of increasingly out there stat generation methods (starting with the ones in the DMG), starting with healing potions, etc, etc... So, restricts stacking abuse to parties with multiple casters... ok. I just find it really pallid next to even /casting/ a spell back in the day. If your [I]concentration[/I] was broken while casting, you lost the spell, no effect, and memory of it was gone. And that wasn't a save or a skill check (the luxury!), it was if you took even 1 hp of damage from anything. If you were grabbed or jostled. If you were on a ship's deck at sea in less than perfectly calm conditions. If you were walking faster than a stately pace. Depending on the DM's interpretations and the initiative rolls you could - or were virtually guaranteed - to be interrupted by attacks, too, especially in melee. Casters were profoundly allergic to melee. "Concentration" on just durations? Not even all durations? No chance of being interrupted? Even in melee? Virtually no restrictions on casting? It's not an adventure, [I]it's a vacation[/I]. 24+ encounters/day? That's pretty active. Also plenty of reasonably safe places to rest. The point is, the long rest is available. I can see plenty of cases where you might take /either/ a long or short rest (so why not a long one). Easily a short rest, but not a long is the one I find less than plausible. Time pressure to contain the challenge to a single day is usually about it. Oh, sure. Damage - overall DPR in the course of the prescribed 5e day - is just where classes tend to balance out. It's not nearly the Bard or Wizard's best thing, but, in a basic - single-target, not too situational - way, they can probably both output comparable damage when that's all that's needed, one way or another. Yep, it's the spontaneous/known rather than neo-Vancian casting, at bottom. They're an impressive and even cool (come up quite a bit in the world from Elan) class, but still Tier 2. [/QUOTE]

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