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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7840005" data-attributes="member: 6750235">I was just pointing out where 9 comes from.  Then I pointed out the difference without race (7 vs 3).  Then I posted one I played (5 vs 3) that didn't add cantrips from subclass or race.  Pointing out something that has been said and giving it a breakdown doesn't assume anything.No one posted a build for comparison for the wizard yet.  Adding a cantrip via illusionist doesn't match adding 2 via celestial and 3 more via tome.  Unless you have a wizard subclass that adds 4 cantrips wizard are behind based on class potential.That was my point to refute your comment that a wizard can cast the spells normally or as rituals.Other class can cast those spells as rituals or slots because of the requirements of their ritual mechanics.  Wizards don't cast them as either rituals or slots because it's so situational to need to cast them using slots that there's no point prepping them, and wizards aren't forced to prep them to cast them as rituals.That doesn't make any sense.  Warlocks wanting cantrips are likely going tome and having more than the wizard.  The wizard is more likely to need the feat for more than the warlock, who can add more without the feat.I never made any comments about portent vs EB.  As you could see in my sample build that I liked playing I don't bother with EB in the first tier.  If we're comparing subclasses and you want to use diviner I'm going to say diviners are awesome, portent is great and tied to long rests while warlock patron abilities are tied to short rests (fey presence in this example), I love that expert divination promotes the use of casting divination spells later, and then point out that a diviner doesn't get bonus cantrips so if that's the comparison we're using then it applies to all aspects of the discussion.Except there was no one-way assumption.  That was just a number breakdown based on something that came up in the conversation.Yeah, cantrip damage sucks in general compared to weapon damage.  EB has a pretty heavy investment for gains that early.I think I should point out I've also gone with beguiling influence to expand my proficiencies and play heavily towards using ability checks.  Friends can be useful but advantage on either persuasion or intimidation with a CHA class and proficiency without the aggression that comes after friends.  The multiple target charm is handy for damage mitigation or stopping a fight in order to make use of those skills.I just can't pull off rituals and 2 more skills and silent image on the same character in that tier.  I do find silent image at-will and more cantrips and some good rituals and CHA vs INT is more advantageous at first.That's still 18 CHA.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />This demonstrates my issues with hex, however.  Casting unseen servant ends hex.  Casting flaming sphere ends hex.  Casting comprehend languages as a ritual ends hex.  Casting guidance ends hex.  Casting find familiar is less likely to be needed but also end hex.The difference between the eldritch blast and a light crossbow is 1 damage at that level range and doesn't require the investment, while hex isn't a given unless a person is giving up frequent uses of guidance or not using the ritual caster feature.</blockquote>

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