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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7842542" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>I'll discuss any level you want with an open mind. Especially low level because the 1st tier of play doesn't really last long, ime. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's incorrect. We would assume the same game play for apples to apples which means all of the wizard rituals the wizard finds would have also been found by the warlock. The warlock is waiting until 3rd level to scribe them but he has found the same number of wizard scrolls as the wizard would have.</p><p></p><p>The difference is the warlock may have also found bard, cleric, or druid rituals so the only conclusion is that warlock will find the same as or more rituals to scribe than the wizard can. Once 3rd level hits finding rituals is a clear advantage for the tome pacts.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's really not that hard to leave the attitude out of a polite discussion.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Generic the flavor Warlock</strong></p><p></p><p>Half-Elf -- darkvision, fey ancestry, skill versatility</p><p>Ability Scores (point buy) -- 10 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA</p><p>Background -- urchin: disguise kit, thieves' tools, city secrets</p><p>Skill Proficiencies -- sleight of hand +5, stealth +5, investigation +2, religion +2, perception +2, deception +5</p><p>Patron -- Fey, available at 1st level</p><p>Pact -- tome, available at 3rd level</p><p></p><p>Initially, I see a lot more proficiencies on my choice. No need to pick a race for an extra cantrip going tome. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>I'll break these next response down by level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which 4 spells did you prep?</p><p></p><p>1st level -- 1 1st-level slot that recovers on a short rest, 2 cantrips, 2 spells known, patron ability</p><p></p><p>cantrips -- prestidigitation, light</p><p>spells known -- sleep, unseen servant</p><p>patron ability -- fey presence (recovers on a short rest)</p><p></p><p>First thoughts: well, no armor, lower CON score and hit dice, lower AC, your damage is lower. More tool proficiencies, more skill proficiencies, and an AoE charm ability for my warlock. The warlock has better damage, accuracy, hit point, and AC.</p><p></p><p>Heck, I can auto-succeed on DC 25 locks with the "take time" rule.</p><p></p><p>If you claim 3 slots due to a short rest it's the wizard's 3 spell slots to the warlock's 2 spell slots plus 2 pact abilities. The wizard has more cantrips and 1 ritual, which was expected at 1st level.</p><p></p><p>Those spells also fail to include spells mentioned earlier like light in the cantrips. I see you did pick up magic missile like I mentioned as an option to Zard earlier and dropped the light cantrip. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which 5 spells did you prep?</p><p></p><p>2nd level -- 2 1st-level slots that recovers on a short rest, 2 cantrips, 2 spells known, patron ability, 2 invocations</p><p></p><p>cantrips -- prestidigitation, light</p><p>spells known -- sleep, unseen servant, armor of agathys</p><p>patron ability -- fey presence (recovers on a short rest)</p><p>invocations -- misty visions (silent image at will), beast speech (speak with animals at will)</p><p></p><p>First thoughts: The hit point gap increases, you have 2 rituals now, I added another defensive option. If we're assuming only 1 rest so you can count arcane recovery it's your 4 1st level slots and 2 portents vs my 4 1st level slots and my 2 fey presences and my unlimited uses of silent image and speak with animals.</p><p></p><p>The wizard does have friends or charm person to help with the lower social skill checks based on CHA but fey presence can cover that if needed. Or anyone can give advantage with the help action.</p><p></p><p>I think the higher DEX, CHA, and additional proficiencies plus invocations are smoking the wizard right now, and I was a little shocked you dumped defense to get to that point.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which 6 spells did you prep?</p><p></p><p>3rd level -- 2 2nd-level slots that recovers on a short rest, 2 cantrips, 2 spells known, patron ability, 2 invocations, pact ability</p><p></p><p>cantrips -- prestidigitation, light, friends, resistance, guidance</p><p>spells known -- sleep, unseen servant, armor of agathys, shatter</p><p>patron ability -- fey presence (recovers on a short rest)</p><p>invocations -- misty visions (silent image at will), book of ancient secrets (rituals; swapped from beast speech)</p><p>pact -- tome (book of shadows; 3 cantrips from any class)</p><p>book rituals -- speak with animals, find familiar</p><p></p><p>These are your options for the spell slots: 3 2nd level slots and 4 1st level slots, or 2 2nd-level slots and 6 1st-level slots. That's decent enough at 3rd level and gives the versatility in spells I mentioned earlier. It's compared to my 4 2nd-level slots and unlimited silent images. Or we can forgo any short rests if you prefer and it's your 2 2nd-level slots 4 1st level slots compared to my 2 2nd-level slots and unlimited silent images. Or, we can go with the standard assumed 2 short rests. It doesn't matter; at this level the warlock has the spell slot advantage due to invocations regardless of the number of rests, which is what I stated earlier.</p><p></p><p>Your build only has 2 rituals compared to my 3 rituals, and you skipped demonstrating that you would have prepped either of them as you had previous stated you could (which I said could but would not). Neither you nor Frogweaver demonstrated prepping a ritual.</p><p></p><p>The actual rituals you have are alarm and unseen servant. The rituals I have are find familiar, speak with animals, and unseen servant. The ritual advantage unexpectedly went to me in the end. That's the opposite of previous arguments for the ritual advantage. Alarm doesn't offer the utility those rituals do and can be covered by setting watches. </p><p></p><p>My light crossbow does d8+3 damage compared to your firebolt's d10, and that's not covering the eldritch blast I'm picking up at 4th level and agonizing blast at 5th level. Firebolt was behind from the start.</p><p></p><p>Your cantrips are minor illusion, firebolt, message, and friends. You added speak with small animals in there and minor illusion via race bonus and that still only gave a temp advantage at 1st level given silent image and speak with animals were at will at 2nd level on my build and firebolt wasn't a better option than a crossbow. Message doesn't beat light and prestidigitation, but adding in guidance and resistance can be rather useful.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Control is a wizard's strong suit. I wouldn't expect DPR to be the primary focus, and mind spike works with expert divination so I think it's a solid choice from 6th to 10th level. </p><p></p><p>My combat is better hit points and armor, a crossbow, fey presence (it's good for preventing attacks), armor of agathys, silent image, sleep, and shatter. My focus is more on skills, stealth, and trickery. I still covered AoE, damage, and control in there. At 4th level suggestion or invisibility or alter self gets added (I've gone different ways), and at 5th level hypnotic pattern is added while sleep is exchanged.</p><p></p><p>My concern here is that you just listed 6 spells presumably prepped (magic missile, mind spike, silent image, fog cloud, grease). At 3rd level the wizard only preps 2 more spells than the warlock knows. There's still a crunch against fitting a lot in.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The INT matters here. I fit in religion and investigation (and expertise in it later via prodigy), stealth, perception, thieves' tools, disguise kit, sleight of hand, unseen servant, find familiar, speak with animals, resistance, and guidance. Even light and prestidigitation make a difference here.</p><p></p><p>The question is which spell do you not have from the combat list in order to have locate object prepped?</p><p></p><p>Gather information is also a CHA check, btw. It's not associated with a skill, but other social skills can be used to curry favor and gain information that way too.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Friends, fey presence, high CHA, guidance, disguise kit</p><p></p><p>What spell do you not have prepped to fit in charm person?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Healing potions are on the standard equipment list. AL rules have additional potions and scrolls for gold that can be purchased. Neither one of us is hurting for rituals or utility if we're following AL rules. That's probably moving the goalposts thought. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Thieves' tools, disguise kit, guidance, unseen servant, find familiar, speak with animals, light.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There's always alternatives. That's the problem. People look at the alternatives like the wizard spell list is all there when it's restricted to spells actually in the book, and that's further restricted by spells actually taken. Swapping spells when planning ahead is a thing but there's always a typical favorite list that's default and it's not changed on the fly.</p><p></p><p>I could say detect magic at will is an invocation too, but since I never take it that wouldn't be discussing in good faith and gets to the shroedinger arguments.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would though. My warlock has 15 AC and your diviner has 12 AC. My warlock has 24 hit points at 3rd level to go with that and adds 10 temp hp with agathys, and can charm multiple opponents in a pinch for a round. Your diviner has 17 hp and no defensive spells. I have plenty of options for combat assist with silent image, sleep, and shatter. It's hard to use those options at 0 hp. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7842542, member: 6750235"] I'll discuss any level you want with an open mind. Especially low level because the 1st tier of play doesn't really last long, ime. ;) That's incorrect. We would assume the same game play for apples to apples which means all of the wizard rituals the wizard finds would have also been found by the warlock. The warlock is waiting until 3rd level to scribe them but he has found the same number of wizard scrolls as the wizard would have. The difference is the warlock may have also found bard, cleric, or druid rituals so the only conclusion is that warlock will find the same as or more rituals to scribe than the wizard can. Once 3rd level hits finding rituals is a clear advantage for the tome pacts. It's really not that hard to leave the attitude out of a polite discussion. [B]Generic the flavor Warlock[/B] Half-Elf -- darkvision, fey ancestry, skill versatility Ability Scores (point buy) -- 10 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA Background -- urchin: disguise kit, thieves' tools, city secrets Skill Proficiencies -- sleight of hand +5, stealth +5, investigation +2, religion +2, perception +2, deception +5 Patron -- Fey, available at 1st level Pact -- tome, available at 3rd level Initially, I see a lot more proficiencies on my choice. No need to pick a race for an extra cantrip going tome. ;) I'll break these next response down by level. Which 4 spells did you prep? 1st level -- 1 1st-level slot that recovers on a short rest, 2 cantrips, 2 spells known, patron ability cantrips -- prestidigitation, light spells known -- sleep, unseen servant patron ability -- fey presence (recovers on a short rest) First thoughts: well, no armor, lower CON score and hit dice, lower AC, your damage is lower. More tool proficiencies, more skill proficiencies, and an AoE charm ability for my warlock. The warlock has better damage, accuracy, hit point, and AC. Heck, I can auto-succeed on DC 25 locks with the "take time" rule. If you claim 3 slots due to a short rest it's the wizard's 3 spell slots to the warlock's 2 spell slots plus 2 pact abilities. The wizard has more cantrips and 1 ritual, which was expected at 1st level. Those spells also fail to include spells mentioned earlier like light in the cantrips. I see you did pick up magic missile like I mentioned as an option to Zard earlier and dropped the light cantrip. ;) Which 5 spells did you prep? 2nd level -- 2 1st-level slots that recovers on a short rest, 2 cantrips, 2 spells known, patron ability, 2 invocations cantrips -- prestidigitation, light spells known -- sleep, unseen servant, armor of agathys patron ability -- fey presence (recovers on a short rest) invocations -- misty visions (silent image at will), beast speech (speak with animals at will) First thoughts: The hit point gap increases, you have 2 rituals now, I added another defensive option. If we're assuming only 1 rest so you can count arcane recovery it's your 4 1st level slots and 2 portents vs my 4 1st level slots and my 2 fey presences and my unlimited uses of silent image and speak with animals. The wizard does have friends[I] [/I]or[I] [/I]charm person to help with the lower social skill checks based on CHA but fey presence can cover that if needed. Or anyone can give advantage with the help action. I think the higher DEX, CHA, and additional proficiencies plus invocations are smoking the wizard right now, and I was a little shocked you dumped defense to get to that point. Which 6 spells did you prep? 3rd level -- 2 2nd-level slots that recovers on a short rest, 2 cantrips, 2 spells known, patron ability, 2 invocations, pact ability cantrips -- prestidigitation, light, friends, resistance, guidance spells known -- sleep, unseen servant, armor of agathys, shatter patron ability -- fey presence (recovers on a short rest) invocations -- misty visions (silent image at will), book of ancient secrets (rituals; swapped from beast speech) pact -- tome (book of shadows; 3 cantrips from any class) book rituals -- speak with animals, find familiar These are your options for the spell slots: 3 2nd level slots and 4 1st level slots, or 2 2nd-level slots and 6 1st-level slots. That's decent enough at 3rd level and gives the versatility in spells I mentioned earlier. It's compared to my 4 2nd-level slots and unlimited silent images. Or we can forgo any short rests if you prefer and it's your 2 2nd-level slots 4 1st level slots compared to my 2 2nd-level slots and unlimited silent images. Or, we can go with the standard assumed 2 short rests. It doesn't matter; at this level the warlock has the spell slot advantage due to invocations regardless of the number of rests, which is what I stated earlier. Your build only has 2 rituals compared to my 3 rituals, and you skipped demonstrating that you would have prepped either of them as you had previous stated you could (which I said could but would not). Neither you nor Frogweaver demonstrated prepping a ritual. The actual rituals you have are alarm and unseen servant. The rituals I have are find familiar, speak with animals, and unseen servant. The ritual advantage unexpectedly went to me in the end. That's the opposite of previous arguments for the ritual advantage. Alarm doesn't offer the utility those rituals do and can be covered by setting watches. My light crossbow does d8+3 damage compared to your firebolt's d10, and that's not covering the eldritch blast I'm picking up at 4th level and agonizing blast at 5th level. Firebolt was behind from the start. Your cantrips are minor illusion, firebolt, message, and friends. You added speak with small animals in there and minor illusion via race bonus and that still only gave a temp advantage at 1st level given silent image and speak with animals were at will at 2nd level on my build and firebolt wasn't a better option than a crossbow. Message doesn't beat light and prestidigitation, but adding in guidance and resistance can be rather useful. Control is a wizard's strong suit. I wouldn't expect DPR to be the primary focus, and mind spike works with expert divination so I think it's a solid choice from 6th to 10th level. My combat is better hit points and armor, a crossbow, fey presence (it's good for preventing attacks), armor of agathys, silent image, sleep, and shatter. My focus is more on skills, stealth, and trickery. I still covered AoE, damage, and control in there. At 4th level suggestion or invisibility or alter self gets added (I've gone different ways), and at 5th level hypnotic pattern is added while sleep is exchanged. My concern here is that you just listed 6 spells presumably prepped (magic missile, mind spike, silent image, fog cloud, grease). At 3rd level the wizard only preps 2 more spells than the warlock knows. There's still a crunch against fitting a lot in. The INT matters here. I fit in religion and investigation (and expertise in it later via prodigy), stealth, perception, thieves' tools, disguise kit, sleight of hand, unseen servant, find familiar, speak with animals, resistance, and guidance. Even light and prestidigitation make a difference here. The question is which spell do you not have from the combat list in order to have locate object prepped? Gather information is also a CHA check, btw. It's not associated with a skill, but other social skills can be used to curry favor and gain information that way too. Friends, fey presence, high CHA, guidance, disguise kit What spell do you not have prepped to fit in charm person? Healing potions are on the standard equipment list. AL rules have additional potions and scrolls for gold that can be purchased. Neither one of us is hurting for rituals or utility if we're following AL rules. That's probably moving the goalposts thought. ;) Thieves' tools, disguise kit, guidance, unseen servant, find familiar, speak with animals, light. There's always alternatives. That's the problem. People look at the alternatives like the wizard spell list is all there when it's restricted to spells actually in the book, and that's further restricted by spells actually taken. Swapping spells when planning ahead is a thing but there's always a typical favorite list that's default and it's not changed on the fly. I could say detect magic at will is an invocation too, but since I never take it that wouldn't be discussing in good faith and gets to the shroedinger arguments. I would though. My warlock has 15 AC and your diviner has 12 AC. My warlock has 24 hit points at 3rd level to go with that and adds 10 temp hp with agathys, and can charm multiple opponents in a pinch for a round. Your diviner has 17 hp and no defensive spells. I have plenty of options for combat assist with silent image, sleep, and shatter. It's hard to use those options at 0 hp. ;) [/QUOTE]
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