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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7842668" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>Thanks for the analysis, it pretty much backs up my expectations. </p><p></p><p>A few points...</p><p></p><p>As noted, given the issue raised was to create a non-vacuum example, I chose to skip Familiar as a choice due to not knowing the material component availability at low levels. So, I prioritized no-material or common material spells. </p><p></p><p>Additionally, wholr you may want to count speak with animals as ritual in your "edge" I avoided it because I get a lot of that right off by the gnomish feature.</p><p></p><p>Also, I did not pick a given list prepped because that will vary daily by day, situation and need. It is changed quite often and that is where those synergies eith the Int come to the fore - getting info through investigation is a good thing that gets better when you can swap your options around a bit with a bit of a rest yo emphasize what works best. This aspect will just keep growing, especially as later levels come into play.</p><p></p><p>So, will I have one or two ritual prepped? Depends on the day? What will not be chosen to make room for Chsrm Person or Locate? Will vary by the day. I can see how you want yo keep trying to turn it into a comparison of two picked lists of prepped, but thats not how it works in practice, unless you assume one day adventures that start in a vacuum. </p><p></p><p>Also, you have higher AC and HP but I have the ability to craft heslingnpotions... dvdn one Hesling potion averages enough to bridge that HP gap. As for AC, well, in my ecperirnce, the difference between AC 15 and AC 12 is how fast you lose. If AC is bring tested often enough to make 15 vs 12 meaningful, you are losing anyway. </p><p></p><p>But here we get to some of the key bits... you spread out into thieves tools, disguise, etc. Becsuse this is built to be part of a team game, I didn't. I expect there yo be a rogue or ranger or other going the scouting. No need for me to pick locks. </p><p></p><p>I dont need guidance because there is often a cleric around with it. So in situations where Guidsnce is applicable to skill checks, we likely both have it to add that d4 to our skills. </p><p></p><p> Adding in extra Healing, that's always good but still highly variable by game, but I can also be crafting antitoxin iirc. </p><p></p><p>But the number of other teammates with investigation and knowledge checks backed up with high int is... gonna be low. Add in the ability to plan when to ho do a vs b vs c combining knowledge of my portent rolls before spells prepped. <em>and</em> just planning when to do abc knowing both... adds up to a lot more than a lityle bit of gain. </p><p></p><p>As stated, after listing it comes down to assumptions and different values placed on things. Which was where we started before the listing of specific builds for a measuring contest. </p><p></p><p>Not sure where you get better "accuracy" claim, given my firebolt is +5 to hit and my magic missile is auto-hit and I have portent as well. Unless I missed it, you have +5 with your crossbow. Unless this is back to the owl help advantage fiction. I mean, sure, if we are to assume the campaign specs include the oel nit getting pot-shotted and the ready availability of comps for it and time to recast it as ritual- then thst changes my stated assumption and explanation and it gets taken by my Wizard instead of skipped. (Of course, when looking at EB vs Firebolt at 5th plus, EB only gets its advantage on one shot (one d10+C) but the Firebolt gets advantage on one shot (2d10) etc so that familiar has "accuracy" on more dice of damage using firebolt. Not that the familiar being risked for cantrips is a sensible trade versus say saving it for harder hitting attack roll spells. </p><p></p><p>Of course you chose to go with better backup thievery role while I went other ways. But in my experience, the higher ability scores for Wisdom more than makes up for a lot. Wisdom checks and saves are very common. </p><p></p><p>Gather Info using Cha-Investigation can absolutely be a thing, just like how investigation can be used to gather info on NPC traits to switch disposition- which really lowers DC for social checks a lot. </p><p></p><p>If you think Alarm is covered by setting watches, that's another example of how different our games are - how differently we assume things are used.</p><p></p><p>I also suspect that our games may handle social checks significantly differently if you value a six second charm chance as social tool as highly as it seems like you do. I mean, if it succeeds at its 10' cube vs saves, you only get one round of actions which seems like a very dhortnperiod yo make that psy off socially, unless you are getting to talk somebody into things as a single action in that period. In our games, that us not usually gonna be the case. That's why I vslue Charm with portent and even friends as much. </p><p></p><p>But to me the core difference is gonna be in how often you assume the wizard has chosen the better of his options for the task at hand versus not. How much do you see daily prep after seeing portent and choosing dprlls to fit those and the needs come together vs the always pre-selected warlock. </p><p></p><p>Given how often you want to see a prep list without any of that... I can see where we differ. My spells chosen will change once I see portent rolls. My spells picked will vary based on that plus the situational knowledge we have.</p><p></p><p>That is why my baseline picks dont go for "fixed prep plus rituals" trying to optimize spells off-hand by having no non-ritual spells beyond prep slots. For diviner especially, its key to have flexibility on your choices for prep to better exploit your daily changes and portent rolls.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7842668, member: 6919838"] Thanks for the analysis, it pretty much backs up my expectations. A few points... As noted, given the issue raised was to create a non-vacuum example, I chose to skip Familiar as a choice due to not knowing the material component availability at low levels. So, I prioritized no-material or common material spells. Additionally, wholr you may want to count speak with animals as ritual in your "edge" I avoided it because I get a lot of that right off by the gnomish feature. Also, I did not pick a given list prepped because that will vary daily by day, situation and need. It is changed quite often and that is where those synergies eith the Int come to the fore - getting info through investigation is a good thing that gets better when you can swap your options around a bit with a bit of a rest yo emphasize what works best. This aspect will just keep growing, especially as later levels come into play. So, will I have one or two ritual prepped? Depends on the day? What will not be chosen to make room for Chsrm Person or Locate? Will vary by the day. I can see how you want yo keep trying to turn it into a comparison of two picked lists of prepped, but thats not how it works in practice, unless you assume one day adventures that start in a vacuum. Also, you have higher AC and HP but I have the ability to craft heslingnpotions... dvdn one Hesling potion averages enough to bridge that HP gap. As for AC, well, in my ecperirnce, the difference between AC 15 and AC 12 is how fast you lose. If AC is bring tested often enough to make 15 vs 12 meaningful, you are losing anyway. But here we get to some of the key bits... you spread out into thieves tools, disguise, etc. Becsuse this is built to be part of a team game, I didn't. I expect there yo be a rogue or ranger or other going the scouting. No need for me to pick locks. I dont need guidance because there is often a cleric around with it. So in situations where Guidsnce is applicable to skill checks, we likely both have it to add that d4 to our skills. Adding in extra Healing, that's always good but still highly variable by game, but I can also be crafting antitoxin iirc. But the number of other teammates with investigation and knowledge checks backed up with high int is... gonna be low. Add in the ability to plan when to ho do a vs b vs c combining knowledge of my portent rolls before spells prepped. [I]and[/I] just planning when to do abc knowing both... adds up to a lot more than a lityle bit of gain. As stated, after listing it comes down to assumptions and different values placed on things. Which was where we started before the listing of specific builds for a measuring contest. Not sure where you get better "accuracy" claim, given my firebolt is +5 to hit and my magic missile is auto-hit and I have portent as well. Unless I missed it, you have +5 with your crossbow. Unless this is back to the owl help advantage fiction. I mean, sure, if we are to assume the campaign specs include the oel nit getting pot-shotted and the ready availability of comps for it and time to recast it as ritual- then thst changes my stated assumption and explanation and it gets taken by my Wizard instead of skipped. (Of course, when looking at EB vs Firebolt at 5th plus, EB only gets its advantage on one shot (one d10+C) but the Firebolt gets advantage on one shot (2d10) etc so that familiar has "accuracy" on more dice of damage using firebolt. Not that the familiar being risked for cantrips is a sensible trade versus say saving it for harder hitting attack roll spells. Of course you chose to go with better backup thievery role while I went other ways. But in my experience, the higher ability scores for Wisdom more than makes up for a lot. Wisdom checks and saves are very common. Gather Info using Cha-Investigation can absolutely be a thing, just like how investigation can be used to gather info on NPC traits to switch disposition- which really lowers DC for social checks a lot. If you think Alarm is covered by setting watches, that's another example of how different our games are - how differently we assume things are used. I also suspect that our games may handle social checks significantly differently if you value a six second charm chance as social tool as highly as it seems like you do. I mean, if it succeeds at its 10' cube vs saves, you only get one round of actions which seems like a very dhortnperiod yo make that psy off socially, unless you are getting to talk somebody into things as a single action in that period. In our games, that us not usually gonna be the case. That's why I vslue Charm with portent and even friends as much. But to me the core difference is gonna be in how often you assume the wizard has chosen the better of his options for the task at hand versus not. How much do you see daily prep after seeing portent and choosing dprlls to fit those and the needs come together vs the always pre-selected warlock. Given how often you want to see a prep list without any of that... I can see where we differ. My spells chosen will change once I see portent rolls. My spells picked will vary based on that plus the situational knowledge we have. That is why my baseline picks dont go for "fixed prep plus rituals" trying to optimize spells off-hand by having no non-ritual spells beyond prep slots. For diviner especially, its key to have flexibility on your choices for prep to better exploit your daily changes and portent rolls. [/QUOTE]
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