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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 228749" data-attributes="member: 2486">LostSoul: Perhaps, but the line has to be drawn.  If not, it can be very abusive indeed.  If a low Int character is formulating master strategems, a low Wis character making incredibly insightful and useful comments and a low Cha character persuading the party to follow him then something is clearly amiss.  If the character is circumvented his own ability scores then DM intervention is probably required.rounser: Whilst I see where you are coming from, the reverse does not appear to apply.Firstly, I would contradict your rather specious point about the DM disallowing intelligent characters to do stupid things.  Not only do intelligent people in real life actually do stupid things, but some DMs (all the ones I've played with for one) allow an Int check to remember something if the player has forgotten; or a Wis check to prevent a foolish player from doing something moronic with his character.However, my substantive point is this: if you 'unquantify' Int, Wis and Cha, the general effect is that the more intelligent and exploitative players will simply play tanks and then use their ultra-high mental abilities to turn their character into a one-man party.  It also smacks of player elitism: the whole point is that in theory all characters should be roughly equal.  Experienced roleplayers will tend to dominate any situation, but by forcing them to justify this with high mental scores you divert away some of their prowess.  Worse, it means that a player with a low charisma or whatever is constrained to a character with a low charisma.  If you believe that player choice is the ultimate aim, you have contradicted your own argument.  The hallmark of a *good* roleplayer, as opposed to a mediocre roleplayer, is the ability to take decisions which are in character even if the player knows that they are detrimental.  If that includes actually roleplaying out a low charisma score, then so be it.  It just stings of hypocrisy to use charisma as a 'dump stat' and then promptly ignore it.  The mental stats are the more abstract and part of their impact is on roleplaying- to ignore that is to nullify them.  If you really wish for your characters to be charismatic, intelligent or wise, put a high score in the appropriate ability and take a hit to your combat prowess: it is exploitation, bordering on cheating. to simply dump a 6 in intelligence and roleplay a mastermind.</blockquote>

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