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<blockquote data-quote="abirdcall" data-source="post: 8447246" data-attributes="member: 6748898">Those surprise rounds aren't supported by the rules.The problem I'm having here is that it doesn't look like there is any room to have enchantments actually work.Say the fae spirit has a 'surprise round' and successfully charms the creature. Well the charmed effect doesn't force the creature to like you and they can still attack your allies. So all you ended up doing is instigating a fight.I think for enchantments to work the DM needs to allow for them to be used without a fight automatically happening, or for their targets to be aware of the charming and react in kind. As to the question about allowing NPCs the chance to charm the PCs without chance to win initiative? Yes, I think it's a compromise to allow enchantments to work.Let's look at Suggestion again. The PC successfully casts it and suggests the knight go give their horse away. Is the knight going to yell for help along the way shouting 'I've been enchanted please help! those are the culprits!&quot; The spell doesn't stop that from happening and if thought through that is what the targeted character would do. But that ruins enchantments in the game.I just think they should be assumed to be subtler than that.If my Glamour Bard puts on a magical performance and charms a crowd I don't think of it as assault. I think the magic made the performance stuff of legends and the 'targets' respond in kind.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="abirdcall, post: 8447246, member: 6748898"] Those surprise rounds aren't supported by the rules. The problem I'm having here is that it doesn't look like there is any room to have enchantments actually work. Say the fae spirit has a 'surprise round' and successfully charms the creature. Well the charmed effect doesn't force the creature to like you and they can still attack your allies. So all you ended up doing is instigating a fight. I think for enchantments to work the DM needs to allow for them to be used without a fight automatically happening, or for their targets to be aware of the charming and react in kind. As to the question about allowing NPCs the chance to charm the PCs without chance to win initiative? Yes, I think it's a compromise to allow enchantments to work. Let's look at Suggestion again. The PC successfully casts it and suggests the knight go give their horse away. Is the knight going to yell for help along the way shouting 'I've been enchanted please help! those are the culprits!" The spell doesn't stop that from happening and if thought through that is what the targeted character would do. But that ruins enchantments in the game. I just think they should be assumed to be subtler than that. If my Glamour Bard puts on a magical performance and charms a crowd I don't think of it as assault. I think the magic made the performance stuff of legends and the 'targets' respond in kind. [/QUOTE]

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