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<blockquote data-quote="abirdcall" data-source="post: 8447357" data-attributes="member: 6748898">Let's put aside the framing of 'sucker punch' for now.What happens after is another matter entirely. It depends on the nature of the charm.If my Glamour Bard had just put on an enthralling performance the targets who saved would probably think it was a great show (I'm assuming a high performance) but wouldn't really understand the adulation some are giving.With the Fae Spirit teleportation the targets would probably be annoyed. How annoyed would depend on their personality or could be hostile if they don't think kindly of fae.A Suggestion? Might be downright insulting and depending on the target might start a fight or end a negotiation.Charm Person? The target knows they were charmed after the spell is over but it doesn't say they know an attempt was made (and a target doesn't know unless explicitly stated). It's probably going to be an embarrassing situation for the enchanter. How obvious it is that a spell was cast will be up to the DM and will probably depend on the targeted creatures. Picture a conversation where one person adds some words in another language and has a flourish with their hands. A smart enchanter would be talking with their hands already, it would just be part of their mannerisms. Could be a contested check but likely a result similar to Suggestion. The alternative is to effectively cut out enchantment as manipulation and magical charisma aid (Glibness isn't even enchantment for some reason) and relegate it to mind control attack. As subtle enchantment is a common thing in fantasy fiction I think the game loses out.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="abirdcall, post: 8447357, member: 6748898"] Let's put aside the framing of 'sucker punch' for now. What happens after is another matter entirely. It depends on the nature of the charm. If my Glamour Bard had just put on an enthralling performance the targets who saved would probably think it was a great show (I'm assuming a high performance) but wouldn't really understand the adulation some are giving. With the Fae Spirit teleportation the targets would probably be annoyed. How annoyed would depend on their personality or could be hostile if they don't think kindly of fae. A Suggestion? Might be downright insulting and depending on the target might start a fight or end a negotiation. Charm Person? The target knows they were charmed after the spell is over but it doesn't say they know an attempt was made (and a target doesn't know unless explicitly stated). It's probably going to be an embarrassing situation for the enchanter. How obvious it is that a spell was cast will be up to the DM and will probably depend on the targeted creatures. Picture a conversation where one person adds some words in another language and has a flourish with their hands. A smart enchanter would be talking with their hands already, it would just be part of their mannerisms. Could be a contested check but likely a result similar to Suggestion. The alternative is to effectively cut out enchantment as manipulation and magical charisma aid (Glibness isn't even enchantment for some reason) and relegate it to mind control attack. As subtle enchantment is a common thing in fantasy fiction I think the game loses out. [/QUOTE]

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