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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8448092" data-attributes="member: 7030563">Those surprise rounds aren't supported by the rules.The problem I'm having here is that it doesn't look like there is any room to have enchantments actually work.Say the fae spirit has a 'surprise round' and successfully charms the creature. Well the charmed effect doesn't force the creature to like you and they can still attack your allies. So all you ended up doing is instigating a fight.I think for enchantments to work the DM needs to allow for them to be used without a fight automatically happening, or for their targets to be aware of the charming and react in kind.The rules do  not support this.The fey spirit does not need a surprise round.  You can attack and hit the target for 50hp, then the spirit can attack that same target for 20 more and then the fey spirit can use his bonus action to charm the same target and the target (down 70hps) is charmed by both you and the spirit PERIOD.  He suffers from the charmed effect and can not harm you or  the spirit as long as he is under that effect and ability checks against the target have advantage.Sure the target can attack your allies, as long as he does not harm you.  So he can't fireball your allies if you are standing by them.  If you and your spirit are blocking a corridor, sure he can hurt your allies, but he can't get to them so he has to like maybe throw his sword at them and they have cover.As far as the rest of the charmed effect, that is in play too.  If you make a social ability check against the enemy it is with advantage.  Your allies, no they don't do it with advantage, but they would not do it with advantage if you cast charm person either.This is part of the problem with this discussion, there is nothing in the description of the charm effect or the description of the Summon Fey spell that says or implies combat affects this at all.  The effects of combat are not on the charmed condition or on enchantments in general, they are only to specific spells like charm person.Finally Fey Spirit lasts an hour, so if you want to use it without someone reacting to you casting it then cast it ahead of time and YOU can charm someone.  Said creature will still not be charmed by your allies though and can attack them or do anything else they would normally do.Let's look at Suggestion again. The PC successfully casts it and suggests the knight go give their horse away. Is the knight going to yell for help along the way shouting 'I've been enchanted please help! those are the culprits!"Suggestion does not cause the charmed condition, so it should not be confused with charmed.It depends on the exact wording, assuming you told the knight to "go give your horse away" he would probably kill you then go give his horse away.  If you worded it such that he had to do it right now, absolutly he would yell on the way that he has been enchanted and probably shoot his crossbow at you while riding his horse in the direction you told him to go and give it away.We used suggestion about two months ago to make a powerful enemy stay seated while we robbed his house and freed two prisoners he was screaming from his seated position the entire time.  After we had all  his goods and the prisoners we lined up on the other side of the room and attacked him.  The DM ruled this broke the suggestion because it is causing him to harm himself.The spell doesn't stop that from happening and if thought through that is what the targeted character would do. But that ruins enchantments in the game.It is what he SHOULD do.  That is how the game and the spell works, there is no problem or ambiguity with itI just think they should be assumed to be subtler than that.If you use subtle spell they are.  That is why subtle spell exists.  Take the metamagic feat or play a sorcerer - problem solved.If my Glamour Bard puts on a magical performance and charms a crowd I don't think of it as assault. I think the magic made the performance stuff of legends and the 'targets' respond in kind.That is not a spell.  It does not fall under the rules for spells. Neither does beguiling twist or Hypnotic Gaze.In the case of the bard this is also covered in the description of enthralling performance:"If a target succeeds on its saving throw, the target has no hint that you tried to charm it."Finally I think people have the wrong idea of what charmed is in social situations.  "Charmed" can not make someone do something they wouldn't otherwise do. For example, RAW if it is impossible to convince the guard to let you pass when he is not charmed it is still impossible when he is charmed too.  Being charmed does not change that, all it does in this situation is give you advantage on the roll that is already possible.  So if you are trying to bribe the guard and he can't be bribed then you are going to fail whether he is charmed or not.  If he can be bribed with a DC 20 persuasion check then you get 2 shots to make it.   Now suggestion is absolutely something you could use.</blockquote>

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